As I wander through the blogosphere I have come across a few comments from people – who I gather have not actually read The Wages of Wins – that we argue that Dennis Rodman is better than Michael Jordan.
The statement is taken out of context from an article I published in 1999, where I outlined how one can use regression analysis to measure player performance in the NBA. That article only looked at one season of player performance, which happened to be Jordan’s last season with the Chicago Bulls. It is very important to note that the model we employ in The Wages of Wins is not the same as the model previously published, a point one might know if one read the book. And yes, I think the model outlined in The Wages of Wins is the better model. In other words, some learning took place between 1999 and the present.
That being said, what do we actually say about Michael Jordan in The Wages of Wins? Here is a brief excerpt from the book:
p. 140-141 in The Wages of Wins
Jordan entered the league in 1984 and retired a third and final time—at least as of this writing it is the final time—in 2003. Over this time period Jordan played in fifteen seasons, playing his last season when he was 40 years old. How does Jordan’s performance across all these years compare to what we have seen thus far from Kevin Garnett? As we noted, in Garnett’s first nine seasons his WP48 was 0.326. Now we must remember that Garnett began his career when he was nineteen and at the conclusion of the 2004–05 campaign he was only 29 years old. So we are only looking at Garnett in his prime, while we are considering both MJ’s prime years and also his time as the very elderly statesmen of the Washington Wizards. Surprisingly, MJ’s WP48 across this entire career bested Garnett in his prime. When Jordan retired in 2003 his career WP48 stood at 0.346.
Now what if we only considered MJ’s seasons before his first retirement? Well, in Garnett’s first ten seasons he produced 200 wins. Jordan was hurt for much of his second season, and he retired the first time after only nine years. Yet despite playing only a bit more than eight seasons, Jordan produced 219 wins before giving baseball a try. Jordan’s WP48 across these years was an amazing 0.406. What does that mean? With a bit of math we can see that a team of average players plus Jordan would win 61 games.
We go on, but I think these two paragraphs highlight the tone of our argument. The Wins Produced model indicates that Jordan was an extremely good player.
Just to clarify, WP48 is Wins Produced per 48 minutes. So WP48 is a per-minute measure of performance, and on a per-minute basis Jordan generally performed at a higher level than Kevin Garnett. And hopefully our readers understand what we have said about Kevin Garnett.
As we say in the book, if you look at Jordan’s entire career you can make an argument that he is the best to play the game. And this result fits the conventional wisdom. It is important to note what we say about the basic premise of our book at wagesofwins.com: The basic premise is that much of what people believe about sports is not true when one looks at the very numbers sports generate.
We do not say “everything you believe about sports is not true.” In the case of Michael Jordan, what people generally believe is true. Jordan was a great player. And if you look at the numbers, that is indeed the story that is told.
Of course, we also tell the story that Dennis Rodman was a very good player. This is a story that does not fit the conventional wisdom, wisdom that undervalues the contributions of non-scorers. I will comment more on that story soon.
– DJ
9 responses so far ↓
scarter // June 2, 2006 at 5:18 am
You need a leader who has a fire in his eye to win. I see Lebron having this…MJ definitely had this; but KG? That has yet to be seen. Now it is up to the GM to find the right role players who can and will find the bowens, princes, howards, and rodmans who will come in and use their strengths to complement the greater good of the team.
rodman was a great role player and also very smart professionally in who he played a role for. the pistons, san antonio (before duncan), then the bulls and then the lakers. He joined teams he knew had a chance each year to compete. my question is, “how do you determine if a player has that fire and as a GM you should build around them?”
Harold Almonte // June 2, 2006 at 5:51 am
The diference between a scorer specialist and a role player is perhaps like between pitchers and batters. Two different works in a same sport. You shouldn´t rate them together. As I said, teams that rely on guards shooters as main scorers, waste more possesions and need more deffense and second chances to compensate, or accelerate the tempo. Is here where these teams need a role player like Rodman in the front court. Teams with a strong scorer forward need a good point. It´s Iverson a good point?, maybe is only a good short SG.
zwichenzug // June 2, 2006 at 8:29 am
I think the ‘fire in the eye’ stuff is exactly the kind of judgment that people get wrong, or, anyway, which they get right by making meaningless. Who has ‘fire in the eye’? What kind of evidence can there be for it?
Did MJ have fire in the eye? Of course, because he won championships. What about LeBron? Maybe we say yes, provisionally, but we’d decide we were wrong if he doesn’t end up winning championships. And, apparently, we say that Garnett doesn’t have it because he hasn’t won — though it’s ‘yet to be seen’ since he could still get a ring.
The point is that the ‘fire in the eye’ stuff doesn’t actually predict who’s going to win championships. Instead, it’s just something we say about champions. On one level, that’s fine — I like evocative metaphors as much as the next sports fan. But it doesn’t really stand in competition with attempts to approach player evaluation empirically.
matt27 // June 2, 2006 at 8:59 am
Love the book guys. I have a question for you that’s basketball related, mostly about your “wins produced” statistic. The 76ers offense under Larry Brown was set up for Iverson to create a shot, thereby getting the defense out of position and allowing his teammates to get the follow up rebound and follow up shot. That is, his scores per shot rating would be low, but it would seem that he would be creating extra possessions. Is there any statistic you’ve covered that would measure this?
My apologies for this not being about Michael Jordan but I couldn’t find an appropriate forum.
Harold Almonte // June 3, 2006 at 5:31 am
Everything we believe is not true?…everything we believe will be not true with these new perimeter rules. Defense is not winning championships. quick guard shooters rules the basketball now. Oh god ! ..I don´t like that basketball.
What do you think about it?
sweber // June 9, 2006 at 10:07 am
Just found this site via Yglesias, and need to get your book. I did something like this in about 1999, and as I recall, using available pre- and post-steady line-ups up to a 3-year max in either direction, and considering both joining and leaving a team, No 1 was actually Larry Bird. I think Magic was No. 2 or close, with Michael, Oscar Roberston and Jerry West right there. The single greatest impact I found was Oscar joining the Bucks and retiring, with Kareem, Dandridge et al pretty steady — it was like a 30 game difference both ways, as I recall. (I need to dig it out and update.)
I agree that Rodman was, indeed, a great player. Arguably, because the game changed so much — fewer shots, better percentage, resulting in about 40% fewer total rebounds to be grabbed in a game (roughly 85 in the modern era vs. 140 in the Russell-Wilt days) — Rodman was the best rebounder of all time considering time on the floor. Heresy? Yes, but the numbers support an argument: 13 boards in 40 minutes in 2000 was about the same percentage of available boards as over 20 in 48 minutes in the old days (Wilt never sat). But there was so much more to Rodman than just rebounding. He could defend anyone in the paint — even pissed Shaq off enough to lose effectiveness — and was a great passer. “Role player” is an insult. Michael was the most complete player of all time — Oscar right there, Kobe certainly (but with questionable ability in chemistry), James and Wade up-and-coming. But someone who could do all aspects of the game except scoring himself as well as Rodman is no “role player” — except that every player assumes some “role” on a team. But that’s like calling Russell a role player.
cheese 4 ever // June 14, 2006 at 5:51 pm
he is a great basketball player and he will always be one.
heeeeeeeeee
rockssssssssssssssss
nathan // August 16, 2006 at 2:36 am
for real you all know out there that no one can hold MJ , he just like kobe cant be stop
David Simpson // August 20, 2008 at 5:26 am
I don’t see LeBron James as MJ at all. He is more like Vince Carter or may I dare say it? Harold Miner. Take this to the bank LeBron will never ever win a championship.
The guy that always has fire in his eyes is Dwayne Wade. He has been injured for the last few years but when he is on, he is the best player in the league. Wade has looked awesome during the Olympics and the Heat will improve in the next year.