Comments on: The Surprising Leader of the Overpaid http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/ More Stories from The Wages of Wins Sat, 02 Jan 2010 08:09:16 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Is There a Lesson Being Learned in New York? « The Wages of Wins Journal http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-41428 Is There a Lesson Being Learned in New York? « The Wages of Wins Journal Thu, 04 Oct 2007 16:31:42 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-41428 [...] value of a win I am going to return to the same approach I took in early September when I looked at which players in the NBA were overpaid last year.  In this discussion I noted the [...] [...] value of a win I am going to return to the same approach I took in early September when I looked at which players in the NBA were overpaid last year.  In this discussion I noted the [...]

]]> By: statsprocket http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-39136 statsprocket Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:18:06 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-39136 I did a similar analysis, only not looking at wins but at measure of overall statistical performance - thinking in probably an overly cliched way that teams win and not players. (You can find the article at http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/7167-hvc-paying-production-2007-season.html ) Even with those differences, we agree on a fair number of the most over-paid, starting with Shaq. I did a similar analysis, only not looking at wins but at measure of overall statistical performance – thinking in probably an overly cliched way that teams win and not players. (You can find the article at
http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/7167-hvc-paying-production-2007-season.html
)

Even with those differences, we agree on a fair number of the most over-paid, starting with Shaq.

]]> By: Tony http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-39050 Tony Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:18:04 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-39050 Kenyon Martin was a Role Player (be it a very good role player) and Kiki gave him $93 Million. $100 Million Contracts should be reserved for guys that have the potential to be the best player on their team. K-Mart wouldn't be the best player on the worst team in the league. Kenyon Martin was a Role Player (be it a very
good role player) and Kiki gave him $93 Million.
$100 Million Contracts should be reserved for
guys that have the potential to be the best
player on their team. K-Mart wouldn’t be the
best player on the worst team in the league.

]]> By: The Exploited in 2006-07 « The Wages of Wins Journal http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-39024 The Exploited in 2006-07 « The Wages of Wins Journal Mon, 10 Sep 2007 05:57:26 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-39024 [...] on September 9th, 2007. Last week I looked at the most overpaid players in 2006-07.  The surprising leader of this group was Shaquille O’Neal.  What made this especially [...] [...] on September 9th, 2007. Last week I looked at the most overpaid players in 2006-07.  The surprising leader of this group was Shaquille O’Neal.  What made this especially [...]

]]> By: bobby http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38892 bobby Sat, 08 Sep 2007 04:56:47 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38892 Emeka Okafor is one of the best young center's in the NBA in my opinion. He could anchor a great team on both ends of the floor for years to come, a monster on both ends of the floor. keep him, felton, jrich and wallace no matter what. but especially okafor. Big's like him dont come easy, especially young ones. OKAFOR IS A KEEPER!!! Emeka Okafor is one of the best young center’s in the NBA in my opinion. He could anchor a great team on both ends of the floor for years to come, a monster on both ends of the floor. keep him, felton, jrich and wallace no matter what. but especially okafor. Big’s like him dont come easy, especially young ones. OKAFOR IS A KEEPER!!!

]]> By: An Exploited Shaq « The Wages of Wins Journal http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38806 An Exploited Shaq « The Wages of Wins Journal Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:38:49 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38806 [...] This lesson in basic labor economics is important for the sequel to yesterday’s argument that Shaquille O’Neal was the most overpaid player in 2006-07.    [...] [...] This lesson in basic labor economics is important for the sequel to yesterday’s argument that Shaquille O’Neal was the most overpaid player in 2006-07.    [...]

]]> By: Chris http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38762 Chris Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:29:01 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38762 Notice this list is all veterans, mostly at the tail end of their careers. I think this might be the subject of tomorrow's post, but in sports, people are paid more as they put in more time in the league, regardless of their current level of production. A rookie who is very productive is almost surely going to be underpaid. As for Shaq, his overcompensation now is probably offset by how much he was underpaid (relative to his value) early in his career. It would be interesting to see who has been overpaid over the course of their entire careers. Iverson? Notice this list is all veterans, mostly at the tail end of their careers. I think this might be the subject of tomorrow’s post, but in sports, people are paid more as they put in more time in the league, regardless of their current level of production. A rookie who is very productive is almost surely going to be underpaid. As for Shaq, his overcompensation now is probably offset by how much he was underpaid (relative to his value) early in his career. It would be interesting to see who has been overpaid over the course of their entire careers. Iverson?

]]> By: Ap http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38758 Ap Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:44:15 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38758 "There is no great way to tell exactly how much of an effect that player has. While a player might have a below average WP48, the team without him might be significantly worse." This is exactly what WoW tries to do. It is the best measurement of such a thing out there. And we know its a rough assumption to make that the only value a player adds to a team is wins. Otherwise David Beckham wouldn't be making nearly as much! “There is no great way to tell exactly how much of an effect that player has. While a player might have a below average WP48, the team without him might be significantly worse.”

This is exactly what WoW tries to do. It is the best measurement of such a thing out there. And we know its a rough assumption to make that the only value a player adds to a team is wins. Otherwise David Beckham wouldn’t be making nearly as much!

]]> By: somedude http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38751 somedude Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:42:45 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38751 This isn't very good. There are two holes in this: 1. A player's value isn't limited to income, it includes the revenue they bring in, in other ways. Players like Shaq and Iverson do a lot more than wins. 2. A single player cannot effectively control the total wins of a team. There is no great way to tell exactly how much of an effect that player has. While a player might have a below average WP48, the team without him might be significantly worse. This isn’t very good. There are two holes in this:

1. A player’s value isn’t limited to income, it includes the revenue they bring in, in other ways. Players like Shaq and Iverson do a lot more than wins.

2. A single player cannot effectively control the total wins of a team. There is no great way to tell exactly how much of an effect that player has. While a player might have a below average WP48, the team without him might be significantly worse.

]]> By: MT http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38749 MT Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:47:22 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/the-surprising-leader-of-the-overpaid/#comment-38749 It's an interesting question what the frame of reference should be here. You've chosen to measure salaries against measures of productivity linked to some extent to wins. You and Devaney have also chosen to analyze the question on an annual unit of measurement. But players have additonal value to owners besides wins. Shaq is far more marketable than Ben Wallace. I suspect he drives more revenue to the Miami franchise than Wallace does to the Bulls. Also there is a hedonic factor - it may be cooler to hang with Shaq than with Ben Wallace. Finally, since the norm in the league for starters is the owner has to commit to a multi year contract to buy a player's services for a year, it seems to me there is a question whether an annual measurement is the right way to approach the overpaid/underpaid question. If Shaq's contract was a new one, maybe it would be a legitimate approach. But if it merely the end of a long-term contract, then the overall payment to value ratio may have been wise. After all, never before, regardless of how wisely the Heat spent their money, did they win a championship, until they got Shaq and DWade. And having those two and having them buyinto the Riley approach, may have attracted other talent willing to sacrifice for a chance to get a ring (Mourning, Payton) and and may have also enabled Riley to command more respect from younger players. So there may be externalities beyond the box-score-based measures of productivity that justify some of Shaq's payments over time. It's really hard to argue KMart was not the most overpaid player in the league since he signed that contract with the Nuggets! Much as I loved him as a Net, he has missed most of three seasons. It’s an interesting question what the frame of reference should be here. You’ve chosen to measure salaries against measures of productivity linked to some extent to wins. You and Devaney have also chosen to analyze the question on an annual unit of measurement. But players have additonal value to owners besides wins. Shaq is far more marketable than Ben Wallace. I suspect he drives more revenue to the Miami franchise than Wallace does to the Bulls. Also there is a hedonic factor – it may be cooler to hang with Shaq than with Ben Wallace. Finally, since the norm in the league for starters is the owner has to commit to a multi year contract to buy a player’s services for a year, it seems to me there is a question whether an annual measurement is the right way to approach the overpaid/underpaid question. If Shaq’s contract was a new one, maybe it would be a legitimate approach. But if it merely the end of a long-term contract, then the overall payment to value ratio may have been wise. After all, never before, regardless of how wisely the Heat spent their money, did they win a championship, until they got Shaq and DWade. And having those two and having them buyinto the Riley approach, may have attracted other talent willing to sacrifice for a chance to get a ring (Mourning, Payton) and and may have also enabled Riley to command more respect from younger players. So there may be externalities beyond the box-score-based measures of productivity that justify some of Shaq’s payments over time.

It’s really hard to argue KMart was not the most overpaid player in the league since he signed that contract with the Nuggets! Much as I loved him as a Net, he has missed most of three seasons.

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