Comments on: Chauncey Billups and Isiah Thomas http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/ More Stories from The Wages of Wins Sat, 02 Jan 2010 08:09:16 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Did I Mention I Was an Allen Iverson Fan? « The Wages of Wins Journal http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-59699 Did I Mention I Was an Allen Iverson Fan? « The Wages of Wins Journal Wed, 05 Nov 2008 06:12:41 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-59699 [...] objective (i.e. not as a fan), I would note that Iverson is simply not as productive as Billups.  A few weeks ago I argued that Billups was more productive than Isiah Thomas.  In that discussion I posted the following table comparing Billups, Thomas, and [...] [...] objective (i.e. not as a fan), I would note that Iverson is simply not as productive as Billups.  A few weeks ago I argued that Billups was more productive than Isiah Thomas.  In that discussion I posted the following table comparing Billups, Thomas, and [...]

]]> By: Popular jones http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-59480 Popular jones Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:13:47 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-59480 I can't believe someone had the nerve to say in 1988, Isiah Thomas only had one good game inb that series. In Game 1, 19 points, 11 assists and five steals as the Pistons won. In Game 3, game high 28 points before injuring his back. In Game 4 he had a triple double when he hadn't practiced for that game. In Game 5, 15 points the day after his sone was born. Isiah missed practices for Games 4,5 and 7 because of injuries and the birthy of his son. I can’t believe someone had the nerve to say in 1988, Isiah Thomas only had one good game inb that series.
In Game 1, 19 points, 11 assists and five steals as the Pistons won. In Game 3, game high 28 points before injuring his back.
In Game 4 he had a triple double when he hadn’t practiced for that game. In Game 5, 15 points the day after his sone was born.
Isiah missed practices for Games 4,5 and 7 because of injuries and the birthy of his son.

]]> By: Josh Stinson http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-59295 Josh Stinson Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:04:38 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-59295 I read over and over and over again about how Isiah Thomas wasn't any good because of this statistic or that that statistic - anybody who paid any attention to his career is aware that he put very little stock into stats - the only stat I ever remember him being concerned about was All Star votes - the Pistons won more games when his stats dropped. THAT is what differentiates him from guys like Iverson - who will forego the smart pass for the difficult one that will get him an assist. The 1980's Pistons won two championships in what was arguably the most memorable and competitive decade in the history of the NBA. They are the only team without Magic, Jordan, or Bird on it to win a title (or 2) in the Magic, Jordan, & Bird era. Ask anyone who was even remotely aware of the NBA who the leader of that team was. Nobody in their right mind would say it was Joe Dumars. Hell, after they won the second title, Laimbeer flat out said "Nothing against Joe but we wanted Isiah to win this MVP. This is Isiah's team". The guy scored 25 in the 4th quarter of game 6 of the finals with a broken ankle, bloody eye, ingrown toenail, and receeding hairline, not to mention the fact that he was the shortest player on either team by 3 inches, and the reaction is to say that he hurt the team by playing in the next game? I don't care what his numbers were from the field, and I don't care if Joe Dumars could have stopped God from scoring, Isiah Thomas was the heart and soul of that franchise - and he led them to two titles in arguably the most competitive era in the history of the league. Billup's Pistons wouldnt have gotten out of the Eastrern conference in that era. A big part of the Bad Boys legacy lies in their ability to win without anybody boasting gaudy individual statistics, and in Thomas ability to lead them to those titles. I read over and over and over again about how Isiah Thomas wasn’t any good because of this statistic or that that statistic – anybody who paid any attention to his career is aware that he put very little stock into stats – the only stat I ever remember him being concerned about was All Star votes – the Pistons won more games when his stats dropped. THAT is what differentiates him from guys like Iverson – who will forego the smart pass for the difficult one that will get him an assist. The 1980’s Pistons won two championships in what was arguably the most memorable and competitive decade in the history of the NBA. They are the only team without Magic, Jordan, or Bird on it to win a title (or 2) in the Magic, Jordan, & Bird era. Ask anyone who was even remotely aware of the NBA who the leader of that team was. Nobody in their right mind would say it was Joe Dumars. Hell, after they won the second title, Laimbeer flat out said “Nothing against Joe but we wanted Isiah to win this MVP. This is Isiah’s team”. The guy scored 25 in the 4th quarter of game 6 of the finals with a broken ankle, bloody eye, ingrown toenail, and receeding hairline, not to mention the fact that he was the shortest player on either team by 3 inches, and the reaction is to say that he hurt the team by playing in the next game? I don’t care what his numbers were from the field, and I don’t care if Joe Dumars could have stopped God from scoring, Isiah Thomas was the heart and soul of that franchise – and he led them to two titles in arguably the most competitive era in the history of the league. Billup’s Pistons wouldnt have gotten out of the Eastrern conference in that era. A big part of the Bad Boys legacy lies in their ability to win without anybody boasting gaudy individual statistics, and in Thomas ability to lead them to those titles.

]]> By: CharlieHustle http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58785 CharlieHustle Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:25:58 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58785 I've been a die hard Piston fan since 1985 and in my opinion I think Joe Dumars was better than Isaih and Chauncey. Michael Jordan has stated many times that Joe D was his toughest defender. He had total package..drive, shoot three, post up, and defense. Chaunceys game mirrors Joe D more than Zeke. Does WP measure defense? I’ve been a die hard Piston fan since 1985 and in my opinion I think Joe Dumars was better than Isaih and Chauncey. Michael Jordan has stated many times that Joe D was his toughest defender. He had total package..drive, shoot three, post up, and defense. Chaunceys game mirrors Joe D more than Zeke. Does WP measure defense?

]]> By: directoryofbusinessdirectories.com - Athlete Dennis rodman http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58748 directoryofbusinessdirectories.com - Athlete Dennis rodman Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:07:18 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58748 [...] Chauncey Billups and Isiah Thomas dberri.wordpress.com [...] [...] Chauncey Billups and Isiah Thomas dberri.wordpress.com [...]

]]> By: Metro Links - Athlete Dennis rodman http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58747 Metro Links - Athlete Dennis rodman Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:17:34 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58747 [...] Chauncey Billups and Isiah Thomas dberri.wordpress.com [...] [...] Chauncey Billups and Isiah Thomas dberri.wordpress.com [...]

]]> By: Mark http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58738 Mark Wed, 27 Aug 2008 03:34:55 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58738 Bill Laimbeer is awesome. Bill Laimbeer is awesome.

]]> By: Duff Soviet Union http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58736 Duff Soviet Union Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:49:24 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58736 There is no question that the regular season Isiah was massively over rated (and I'm not generally a WOW guy), but he seems to have been one guy who upped his production in the playoffs. I know Chuck Daly once said that Isiah had a tendency to "lose concentration", which might explain why he played better in the post season. But yeah, I agree with Berri that the success of those teams had much more to do with Rodman and Laimbeer than most people thought at the time, and that Thomas gets way too much credit for "carrying" a ragtag group of hall of famers and great role players to glory. Dean Oliver did a good job pointing out once that the rise and fall of the Pistons correlated much better with the minutes played by Laimbeer than with minutes played by Thomas. I'd probably take Billups over Isiah too. There is no question that the regular season Isiah was massively over rated (and I’m not generally a WOW guy), but he seems to have been one guy who upped his production in the playoffs. I know Chuck Daly once said that Isiah had a tendency to “lose concentration”, which might explain why he played better in the post season. But yeah, I agree with Berri that the success of those teams had much more to do with Rodman and Laimbeer than most people thought at the time, and that Thomas gets way too much credit for “carrying” a ragtag group of hall of famers and great role players to glory. Dean Oliver did a good job pointing out once that the rise and fall of the Pistons correlated much better with the minutes played by Laimbeer than with minutes played by Thomas. I’d probably take Billups over Isiah too.

]]> By: reservoirgod http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58735 reservoirgod Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:13:59 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58735 I think there is a difference between most talented/skilled and most productive. I think most people who have watched Billups and Isiah play will say that Isiah is the more talented and skilled player. His skills on the court were simply amazing - dribbling, passing, scoring, hand speed, foot speed, etc. The only skills Billups exceeds Isiah in are probably 3-pt shooting and post-game. Unfortunately, Isiah didn't use his skills to be as productive as Billups. He dribbled too much and it led to turnovers. He took too many difficult shots, attempted too many difficult passes, or simply was too small for his skills to impose his will on more facets of the game than scoring and passing. Either way, Billups has proven to be more productive but there aren't too many scouts that would say he has more skill/talent than Isiah. I think Prof Berri stated a long time ago on this blog that Wins Produced just looks at the effect but there are others like Dean Poliver who are looking into the cause or the "why" some players are more productive than others. I think there is a difference between most talented/skilled and most productive. I think most people who have watched Billups and Isiah play will say that Isiah is the more talented and skilled player. His skills on the court were simply amazing – dribbling, passing, scoring, hand speed, foot speed, etc. The only skills Billups exceeds Isiah in are probably 3-pt shooting and post-game. Unfortunately, Isiah didn’t use his skills to be as productive as Billups. He dribbled too much and it led to turnovers. He took too many difficult shots, attempted too many difficult passes, or simply was too small for his skills to impose his will on more facets of the game than scoring and passing. Either way, Billups has proven to be more productive but there aren’t too many scouts that would say he has more skill/talent than Isiah. I think Prof Berri stated a long time ago on this blog that Wins Produced just looks at the effect but there are others like Dean Poliver who are looking into the cause or the “why” some players are more productive than others.

]]> By: too many steves http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/chauncey-billups-and-isiah-thomas/#comment-58730 too many steves Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:20:59 +0000 http://dberri.wordpress.com/?p=928#comment-58730 When I'm not at work I'm going to have to listen to this podcast. I've always felt that the big drawback in Mr. Berri's work is that he considers Win Score and Wins Produced to be the end of any debate -- as opposed to the beginning of a debate, or evidence that one might use to support one's side in a debate. John Hollinger can be that way sometimes, but you'll also read many examples of him supplementing PER numbers with discussion of man-to-man defense, or salary cap reprecussions, or other things that PER doesn't measure. I don't think I've read anything on this site that acknolwedged that there might be more to understanding basketball than the WoW statistical method. Anyway, here's hoping that the podcast changes my mind. When I’m not at work I’m going to have to listen to this podcast. I’ve always felt that the big drawback in Mr. Berri’s work is that he considers Win Score and Wins Produced to be the end of any debate — as opposed to the beginning of a debate, or evidence that one might use to support one’s side in a debate. John Hollinger can be that way sometimes, but you’ll also read many examples of him supplementing PER numbers with discussion of man-to-man defense, or salary cap reprecussions, or other things that PER doesn’t measure. I don’t think I’ve read anything on this site that acknolwedged that there might be more to understanding basketball than the WoW statistical method.

Anyway, here’s hoping that the podcast changes my mind.

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