The Wages of Wins Journal

Beat LA? Dream On

October 7, 2008 · 37 Comments

Beat LA.

If you lived in Boston or Detroit – or any team playing the Lakers in the 1980s (other than the Clippers) – this is a cheer you often heard.   Magic Johnson, James Worthy, and the entire Showtime cast were clearly the enemy.  And five times in the 1980s, the enemy took the title (yes, I am a Pistons fan). 

After Magic first retired in 1991, the “Beat LA” refrain became less popular.  This is because LA started to lose with greater frequency.  With LA out of championship contention, the hatred of the Lakers declined considerably.

In 1996, though, Shaquille O’Neal came to town.  Although it took a few years (and the maturation of Kobe Bryant and the addition of Phil Jackson), eventually Shaq led the Lakers to three consecutive titles.  And once again, “Beat LA” became a popular cry (in places like Sacramento and San Antonio). 

The Shaq era, though, ended in 2004.  Despite the play of Kobe, the Lakers descended into mediocrity.  And with that descent, the “Beat LA” cries went silent.

Beat LA Returns

In 2007-08, though, the Lakers once again joined the NBA elite.   Part of this resurgence was tied to the play of Andrew Bynum (see Andrew Bynum is Getting Even).   The Lakers won 24 of their first 35 games with Bynum in the line-up.  And then Bynum suffered a season ending injury and the mediocrity of the previous three seasons returned.  But after winning only six of eleven contests, the Lakers managed to steal Pau Gasol from the Memphis Grizzlies (the Grizzlies were given a few players the Lakers didn’t want along with two tickets – and coupons for free drinks — to the NBA Finals in either 2009 or 2010). 

Gasol was not entirely healthy in LA.  But when he played the team was 22-5.  When he didn’t play the Lakers were only 5-4.  To put the entire picture together, with Bynum or Gasol taking the floor, the Lakers were 46-16 (or on pace to 61 games). Without Bynum or Gasol, the Lakers were 11-9 (or on pace to win 45 games).   In sum, the improved play of Bynum, and then the addition of Gasol, brought “Beat LA” back to the NBA.  Although it didn’t result in an NBA title in 2008, it certainly tells us that the future for those who don’t like LA looks very bleak.

How Bleak?

How bad is the future of those who shout “Beat LA”?  The answer starts with Table One.

Table One: The LA Lakers in 2007-08

Table One reports what the Lakers did in 2007-08, as well as what this team could have expected had player performance not changed from 2006-07.  As one can see, the Wins Produced for this team was 60.4 last season.  Had performance not changed, though, this team would have only expected to win about 46 games.  Much of the difference between what we saw and what was expected can be tied to the improved play of Bynum (worth about 5.5 wins) and the increased production the team received from Lamar Odom (4.0 additional wins). 

With Bynum and Odom improving, the Lakers will be employing in 2008-09 the following four players with a WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] in excess of 0.200 (average is 0.100):

  • Kobe: 0.247 WP48
  • Odom: 0.253 WP48
  • Gasol: 0.273 WP48
  • Bynum: 0.394 WP48

Last season Bynum and Gasol combined to play only 1,926 minutes in the regular season.  Assuming both players are healthy, each player should log significantly more minutes for the Lakers in 2008-09.  And if the performance of each player doesn’t change, we can expect the Wins Production of each player to increase dramatically. 

To see how dramatically, let’s imagine that next season

  • Kobe plays 3,192 minutes (what he played last year)
  • Odom plays 2,921 minutes (what he played last year)
  • Bynum plays 2,362 minutes (found by multiplying his minutes per game from last season by 82)
  • Gasol logs 2,788 minutes (found by multiply Gasol’s minutes per game with LA last season by 82). 

Given these minutes, and the aforementioned WP48, the Lakers can expect to see the following production of wins:

  • Kobe: 16.4 Wins Produced
  • Odom: 15.4 Wins Produced
  • Gasol: 15.9 Wins Produced
  • Bynum: 19.4 Wins Produced

If you add this together, these four players project to 67 wins.  And that’s the number of wins you see before you count the contribution of Jordan Farmar, Luke Walton, Trevor Ariza, and Sasha Vujacic.  Each of these players was above average in 2007-08, which tells us that the Lakers have much more than just the big four.

And here is even more bad news.  Here are the ages of these players:

  • Kobe: 30
  • Odom: 28
  • Gasol: 28
  • Walton: 28
  • Vujacic: 24
  • Ariza: 23
  • Farmar: 21
  • Bynum: 20

As you can see, only Kobe has hit the age of 30.  So unlike the Boston Celtics – who dominated the 2007-08 season – the dominant force in 2008-09 is very young.  And this means people better get used to chanting “Beat LA”.  Given the age of this team – and the productivity of these players – it very much looks like LA is on the verge of yet another dynasty.

Is there hope?

A few days ago John Hollinger provided a forecast for the 2008-09 Lakers.  In this forecast Hollinger detailed all the reasons why the Lakers might falter next season.  These reasons include the following:

  • We don’t know that Bynum can be healthy and productive for an entire season.
  • Although he does not use the phrase “diminishing returns”, Hollinger notes that this many productive players in the frontcourt (Gasol, Bynum, and Odom) likely means that somebody’s production will drop.
  • Along those lines (and a point echoed by Tex Winter), we are not sure that Gasol, Bynum, and Odom can all play together.
  • Kobe is now 30 years old. Plus he has a hurt pinkie.  So Kobe’s production might decline.
  • Vujacic, Farmar, and Derek Fisher all played better last season than they had in the past.  Perhaps last year was just an anomaly and each player will offer less in 2008-09.

Given all these possibilities, Hollinger predicts the Lakers will only win 57 games next year.  This projection, though, is almost certainly too low.  With Bynum and Gasol playing less than 2,000 minutes combined in 2007-08, the Lakers won 57 games.  With each player available for an entire season, it’s hard to see how wins cannot increase.

You Can Shout It, But You Won’t See It

Certainly I think injuries can derail this team.  And as The Wages of Wins notes, diminishing returns is a real issue in basketball.   But diminishing returns is not that big of an effect.  So that means that without major injuries, I think the Lakers are simply going to dominate in 2008-09.   In other words, expecting this team to only win 57 games seems like so much wishful thinking.

And this is bad news for a number of teams that have managed to build very impressive squads.  Boston, Utah, New Orleans (and a few other teams that I think have a chance) should expect to win more than 55 games this year.  And therefore, all should expect- if there wasn’t a team like the Lakers — to contend for a title.  

The Lakers, though, simply look to be too good this year.  So all the fans of these other teams can do is shout “Beat LA.”  But these fans are probably not going to see their teams accomplish this objective very often in 2008-09.  And given the age of the Lakers, it probably isn’t going to happen much in 2009-10 (or 2010-11, etc…). 

Back to Kobe

All of this means that Kobe Bryant is on the verge of being considered one of the greatest players to every play the game (if he isn’t already).  To see this point, let me close by repeating what I said last June:

As I have said before, if Bynum can produce as he did earlier in the year, the Lakers are the favorites to win the title next year (and the year after that as well).  When that happens, we will most certainly hear the following stories (from the very same people criticizing Kobe today).

1. Kobe is the greatest player in the game.  We heard that this year without the Lakers winning a title. 

2. Kobe is as good as Michael Jordan.  Again, we started to hear that in the playoffs this year.

3. Kobe has willed his team to another championship.

Although I fully expect to hear these three statements (assuming the Lakers win in 2009), I also think that Kobe – who is a very good shooting guard – will still be the same Kobe.  In other words, I suspect that the very same writers that are a bit down on Kobe today; will be just as high on the same Kobe in 12 months.  Remember, many of the same analysts who were down on KG 12 months ago have apparently changed their perspective on Garnett.   

Again, we should expect basketball analysts to separate players from teammates. But again and again, we see that this doesn’t happen.  With that in mind, keep track of the people writing negative stories about Kobe and the Lakers right now.  If Bynum comes back as we expect, those same people will write a different story – about Kobe – in just a few short months.

- DJ

The WoW Journal Comments Policy

Our research on the NBA was summarized HERE.

The Technical Notes at wagesofwins.com provides substantially more information on the published research behind Wins Produced and Win Score

Wins Produced, Win Score, and PAWSmin are also discussed in the following posts:

Simple Models of Player Performance

Wins Produced vs. Win Score

What Wins Produced Says and What It Does Not Say

Introducing PAWSmin — and a Defense of Box Score Statistics

Finally, A Guide to Evaluating Models contains useful hints on how to interpret and evaluate statistical models.

Categories: Basketball Stories

37 responses so far ↓

  • Jimbo // October 7, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    I predict this post will generate a barrage of comments. Time will tell!

  • Randy // October 7, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    Dude, you’ve gotta be the first Detroit fan I’ve seen that wasn’t a die-hard, card carrying Kobe hater. I appreciate the respect and class you’ve shown to my team in this blog of yours. Keep up the good work. P.S. I was rooting for you guys so hard in the ECF. Fuck a Boston Celdick. Their NBA commercial should be: “Boston, where buying Championships and faking injuries happen.”

  • Tommy_Grand // October 7, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Good article. Hope youre wrong, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

  • Owen // October 8, 2008 at 1:47 am

    Jimbo – I am tingling with anticipation. I can’t wait of this to get linked on True Hoop. Should be very entertaining.

    DB – Great post

  • stephanie // October 8, 2008 at 3:35 am

    I will be saddened when the MJ and Kobe comparisons begin again in the popular media.

    But uh, isn’t Kobe one of the greatest shooting guards of all time even just considering Wins Produced? Besides MJ what other SG is clearly better in terms of WP than Kobe? Gervin? Drexler? Maybe Moncrief? I know WP wasn’t very kind to Dumars. And Jerry West is N/A under WP AFAIK except his last year at age 35 when he was shooting 44%.

  • Tony Cohen // October 8, 2008 at 5:42 am

    I personally think Ariza will make a HUGE difference. He was hurt a lot last year, but his WIN score is very high as well

  • Tball // October 8, 2008 at 7:40 am

    Along the lines of diminishing returns, I am not sure the minutes projected for Odom/Bynum/Gasol can be expected. Jackson has been very reluctant to play Odom at the 3, instead playing him at the 4. His comments about bringing Odom off the bench seem to indicate these three will rotate in the 4/5 spots. In a regulation game, there are 96 minutes for those spots. Over a season, that would be 7872 minutes (which would include having two of them in throughout voluminous anticipated garbage minutes), but your prediction is counting on 8000 minutes from them. My expectation is that Odom will (unhappily) be playing 25 minutes/gm or 2000 minutes for the season to support the rotation.

    With respect to these three taking the floor together, you do have a different dynamic than the Celtics 3 last year, where Allen, Pierce, and Garnett played clearly different positions and were able to space the floor for each other, with KG accurate from 17 feet and Pierce and Allen accurate from beyond the arc. Bynum, Odom and Gasol all generated their value in and around the paint. If, for instance, Odom is forced to play away from the basket for most of his minutes, his FG% and rebounds will suffer. I don’t buy into the “enough shots (or rebounds, blocks, etc) to go around” arguments, but there are issues with trying to play them all inside.

    That said, I do think the Lakers look like a 70 win team, particularly if Ariza gets starting SF minutes. I also wouldn’t put it past Kupchak to swing a deal with an unhappy Odom for an (hopefully overrated) perimeter player with 3pt range, like Iverson, Josh Howard, or one of the Warriors SFs. Basically, someone who fits on the floor better with Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum.

  • todd2 // October 8, 2008 at 10:09 am

    They only difference in the coming season I can see, if everyone’s healthy, is Bryant’s performance. He led the team in FTA’s and assists (and minutes) and those numbers will probably drop a little bit because of his age—and should to save wear and tear. The rest of the team will need to compensate and lighten his load.

  • Jason J // October 8, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    DJ – Can we get an all-time 2 guard list using WP? stephanie’s comment has me interested. I’d be pretty shocked if he came lower than anyone other than my main man Money.

  • Owen // October 8, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    No torrent of visitors from True Hoop, sort of surprised.

    Clyde Drexler would have to be in the conversation. At this stage of his career, (going into his year 30 season) he has significant advantages in rebounding, assists, and steals on Kobe.

    But Kobe would be up there. It’s interesting, there really haven’t been that many great shooting guards, at least compared to other positions. The top ten list put out by ESPN has, Jordan, Bryant, West, Gervin, Iverson, Drexler, Miller, Maravich, Monroe, and Dumars.

  • dberri // October 8, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    To get a large number of comments you have to say emphatically that someone is “better” than Kobe.

    Looking at Owen’s list… we can’t look at West, Gervin, Maravich, or Monroe. All of these players logged time before the NBA started keeping all the stats.

    Of those that are left… Bryant is not as productive as Drexler (or Jordan). Perhaps a post on that topic would be interesting.

  • stephen // October 8, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    For whatever reason Mr Hollingers’ formulae show the dreaded East Coast Bias. Over the past 3 yrs the west has won better than 250 games against the East. Last yr’s predictions by Hollinger had the West winning only 227 whereas the West won @256(don’t have exact # handy,just remember he was 13+% low. This yr add up his team predictions and he has the West winning only 221 games against East. Overall he had the top 10 Western teams from last yr winning some 43 games fewer this yr.

  • Hans K // October 8, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    Just give the NBA championship to the Lakers for next five years, End of discussion! Ohh, and yes I do believe in the long run the Kobe will be the greatest player to have ever played the game when it’s all said and done!

  • Jacob // October 8, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Sure the Lakers may win the championship this year and perhaps the next, but then the BLAZERS will rise and vanquish the Lakers. Just think of our collection of blue-chip young talent – Oden, Roy, Alridge, Fernandez, Bayless and Outlaw. (I’m not including the likes of Frye and Webster who could turn out to be more than decent pros!) UNREAL!

  • Portland Trailblazers - Shot Talk - Golf Forum // October 8, 2008 at 2:21 pm

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  • jim // October 8, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    You contradict yourself when you say Kobe is on the verge of being the greatest player of all time. Last October you said Kobe wasn’t much better than Paul Pierce and was nowhere near Jordan. Kobe’s WP last year dipped but now he’s on the verge of becoming the greatest player of all time?? Please explain.

    http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/kobe-myths/

  • Makhtar Ndiaye // October 8, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    It sounds as though the Lakers are serious about bringing Bynum off the bench. Assuming that Gasol gets 34 minutes a game, like last year, that means Bynum will get those 14 minutes behind Gasol, and he’ll certainly be a better backup than Chris Mihm or Ronnie Turiaf. The question will be whether Pau and Bynum can be as effective together as they are individually (the chatter coming from Jackson and Winter on this indicates ‘no’), and whether a Gasol-Odom-Bynum lineup could work (again, the L.A. coaches seem to be pessimistic about this).

    If Bynum doesn’t get starter minutes, his production could decrease dramatically.

  • dberri // October 8, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    jim,
    Go back and read the post. What I argue is that we are about to hear that Kobe is the greatest player of all time. This will not actually be true (at least, not according to Wins Produced).

  • Bryan // October 8, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Farmar
    FAR-MAR
    Not “Farmer”.

    Just an FYI.

  • Jeremy // October 8, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    Lakers won’t even make it out of the Western conference. And if they do, they will get beaten by Boston again. Who’s gonna check Rondo?? Is bynum gonna make up the 39 points they lost by to the celtics in the clincher?? Ive said it before and will say it again. Until the lakers prove that they have the mental fortitude to beat a physical team like the Celtics, they are just another flashy Western conference team with not enough cohesion. (Think Dallas or Phoenix) Let’s not forget now, THIS coming season was supposed to be the Celtics season. Last year things just happened to flow perfectly.

  • Jeremy // October 8, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    oh, and “Randy,” still bitter young man??

    #17 we got another banner
    Gonna put it in the rafters

  • Nate // October 8, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    I see the Lakers competing for about 67-72 wins depending on health and the luck in close games.

    I also see the MVP award being a virtual lock for Kobe Bryant. I don’t see his scoring production going down because I think he’ll shoot 47% for the entire year. He’ll get slightly less shots off, but he’ll make more. He’ll stay constant in both his frequency at getting to and his percentage at the line. His assists will go up. 28.8/6/6/47%/1.5st will get MVP for a guy leading a 65+ win team.

    In the playoffs it is over. Kobe averaged 32/6/5 on 53% shooting during the first 3 rounds of the playoffs.

    Kobe will never be as good as Jordan, but if he gets two or three rings and two more MVPs (both I fully expect), he’ll be in the Magic, Wilt, Larry Bird conversation.

  • Greg // October 8, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    I would be very surprised if anyone other than Lebron or Chris Paul won the MVP this year, even if the Lakers flirt with 70 wins, which they won’t because it’s doubtful everything will fall just right for them.

    Injuries will of course be the biggest factor. Odom has had shoulder trouble in recent years, Gasol missed some time last year and Bynum has the knee injury. But as long as they’re only missing one of those players at a time they should be fine (based on the stats quoted concerning last year). In addition, they really don’t have a serviceable 4th big, so I would expect that almost all of the 4/5 minutes will be divvied up between the three of them, which should serve to keep all of them fresh and healthy. I seriously doubt that they’ll play Odom at the 3; it hasn’t worked in the past and he did far better last year simply trying to play off of Gasol. Also, playing him significant minutes at the 3 means that somebody else will be backing up the 4/5 spot, and who will that be? VladRad has the size of a big but not the game. Powell is just a rebounder. Mihm hasn’t done anything in three years. When you factor in Ariza’s productivity, it seems silly to even consider the notion of playing Odom at the 3.

    The main problem with Ariza has always been his shooting. If he could just develop a nice mid-range jumper he would be a complete player. His lack of shooting ability will cause problems though if they start him with Gasol and Bynum on the floor. Opponents will just pack the paint because they have little to fear from outside. For this reason, I think you’ll always see shooters on the floor whenever Gasol and Bynum are out there together. The Lakers played some of their best basketball last year when employing a three guard lineup (Kobe, Sasha, and either Fisher or Farmar) and I think they’ll go to that when Gasol and Bynum are out there. Ariza will get his minutes playing alongside Odom, who isn’t exactly the best outside shooter either but is at least better than Bynum.

  • Arturo // October 8, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    I would hold off on the coronation. I think we have to wait to see the condition of bynum’s knee before we project at 67 wins. I do believe he can get back in form but this might be very similar to Amare’s injury where his numbers drop off while he recovers to 100% . Granted his win score for 07-08 is fantastic but the sample size is smaller than 06-07 (which was above average but about ten wins less wen projected for a full season) and significant variables (his knee, his place in the rotation) have changed. I would want to see the early returns on this season but i think that if you split the difference for bynum and reduce everyone’s minutes (as I think phil jackson WILL protect his players) you could probably project at around 60 wins an be much closer to the truth. However this team (with 75% of Bynum) would be the favorite to win this year.

  • stephanie // October 9, 2008 at 5:57 am

    Prof. Berri, if you end up doing an all time SG article I’d also love to see the following players evaluated even if they end up getting the Dumars treatment…

    Moncrief
    Dennis Johnson? (he was a PG for the Celts but earlier he was an SG)
    Paul Westphal
    Andrew Toney
    Mitch Richmond
    Byron Scott
    Gus Williams
    Michael Cooper

    Who’s better under WP, Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

    Just ignore Gervin’s ABA seasons, I don’t think many care about that for all time rankings anyway, just write up what WP says about what he did in the NBA. And I know Westphal’s first two seasons won’t count for WP but that’s OK, he wasn’t doing much there anyway.

    (you know if you do an all time SG article people will want you to do the other four positions too right?)

  • Jeremy // October 9, 2008 at 8:27 am

    Get Real Nate. 67-72 wins for the Lakers this year?? ok. The Western Conference is too good for them to win that many games. And do not forget up tough games they have against up and coming teams like the Portlands, Clevelands, NEW ORLEANS, and Dallas’ to name a few. I would bet you any amount of money the Lakers do not win over 62 games.

  • Wayne // October 9, 2008 at 9:11 am

    Great Post DB,

    I’m an LA fan, and like most fans just want to hear all the great stuff about Lakers, that being said, I’m a little less optimistic about this season based on what I saw on our first pre-season game. Yeah, I know it’s only a “pre-season” game, but when you read between the lines you can see a few problems. Andrew is looking great, but his game looks like he’s been playing a lot of playground basketball over the summer; It’s weird that in a contract year that Lamar shows up shamefully out of shape; And after a summer of getting excited about the possibility of a Andrew, Pow, Lamar lineup its becoming clear that the coaching staff believe that this wont work (I’m sure they know better than we do!).

    I know that they will have an excellent year, but its going to take some time to work this out, and my feeling is that Lamar is the odd man out and he will, weather he likes it or not, will be coming off the bench. I was shocked by the lineup they started with on the pre-season opener, but now that I think about it, it makes a lot of sense, although I think that Lamar will be replaced by Andrew sooner than later – only if Trevor can make shots to spread the floor.

    I’m looking forward to seeing the multitude of combinations that will be tested before Phil finds the correct balance for the Laker rotation.

    Thanks DB for a well researched analysis.

  • Joe // October 9, 2008 at 11:59 am

    stephanie,

    I don’t think you should expect much from Toney. If you check out the Moses Malone article it contains the following…

    http://www.wagesofwins.com/76ers8284.html

  • CM // October 9, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Jeremy, I will take that bet

  • RogersPark Kris // October 15, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    Can’t believe there have been no mention of the Rockets. With Artest, they have the best defensive squad in the league. I am really surprised they have gotten so little fan fare.

  • Jeremy // October 16, 2008 at 10:43 am

    The Celtics have the best defensive squad in the league. Might be a slight dropoff sans Posey but the Rockets are a poor mans version of the celtics with their defensive prowess and their new “big 3″

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  • brgulker // April 8, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Wow, reading this at the close of the 08-09 season is sort of freaky.

    Dberri is a prophet!

  • izzy // May 11, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    hindsight is cool. go cavs.

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