Not sure everyone is aware of this fact, but DraftExpress reports Win Score per 40 minutes for every player in the NCAA. You will not see PAWS (Position Adjusted Win Score), but positions are provided. Therefore if you know the average Win Score at each position it’s easy to make comparisons across positions.
Previously I noted that I have calculated the average college Win Score per 40 minutes [WS40] at each position from 1995 to 2008 (the specific data set considers all players who were drafted in these fourteen seasons, and who played at least 500 minutes their last season in college).
Here are these averages:
Centers: 12.30
Power Forwards: 12.48
Small Forwards: 9.92
Shooting Guards: 8.43
Point Guards: 7.30
The numbers essentially follow what we see in the NBA. Big men – because they rebound in greater numbers and tend not to turn the ball over – post higher Win Scores. Smaller players are the opposite and post lower Win Scores. Because positions in basketball are complements in production (economic talk for the idea that teams appear to need all positions to produce wins), it makes sense to evaluate a player relative to what we generally see from a player’s position.
Sometime before the draft I think an analysis of the prospects in the draft will get posted. In the meantime, everyone can have these reference points to do some of their own analysis. Please keep in mind, though, that college numbers are not a perfect predictor of NBA productivity. Yes, there is a relationship. But players who are above average in college can be below average in the NBA. And players that are below average in college can become above average in the Association. The tendency is for players to hold to form, but there are no guarantees and there are certainly exceptions.
And Now For Something Else…
A few weeks ago Julian Sanchez offered the following comment on the climate change debate. What Sanchez had to say was then linked to by Crooked Timber, Brad DeLong, and JC Bradbury. At the time I meant to follow suit, but then I never got around to it. Well, better late than never. Hopefully everyone will find this as interesting as I (and others) did.
Sometimes, of course, the arguments are such that the specialists can develop and summarize them to the point that an intelligent layman can evaluate them. But often—and I feel pretty sure here—that’s just not the case. Give me a topic I know fairly intimately, and I can often make a convincing case for absolute horseshit. Convincing, at any rate, to an ordinary educated person with only passing acquaintance with the topic. A specialist would surely see through it, but in an argument between us, the lay observer wouldn’t necessarily be able to tell which of us really had the better case on the basis of the arguments alone—at least not without putting in the time to become something of a specialist himself. Actually, I have a plausible advantage here as a peddler of horseshit: I need only worry about what sounds plausible. If my opponent is trying to explain what’s true, he may be constrained to introduce concepts that take a while to explain and are hard to follow, trying the patience (and perhaps wounding the ego) of the audience.
Come to think of it, there’s a certain class of rhetoric I’m going to call the “one way hash” argument. Most modern cryptographic systems in wide use are based on a certain mathematical asymmetry: You can multiply a couple of large prime numbers much (much, much, much, much) more quickly than you can factor the product back into primes. Certain bad arguments work the same way—skim online debates between biologists and earnest ID afficionados armed with talking points if you want a few examples: The talking point on one side is just complex enough that it’s both intelligible—even somewhat intuitive—to the layman and sounds as though it might qualify as some kind of insight. (If it seems too obvious, perhaps paradoxically, we’ll tend to assume everyone on the other side thought of it themselves and had some good reason to reject it.) The rebuttal, by contrast, may require explaining a whole series of preliminary concepts before it’s really possible to explain why the talking point is wrong. So the setup is “snappy, intuitively appealing argument without obvious problems” vs. “rebuttal I probably don’t have time to read, let alone analyze closely.”
If we don’t sometimes defer to the expert consensus, we’ll systematically tend to go wrong in the face of one-way-hash arguments, at least our own necessarily limited domains of knowledge. Indeed, in such cases, trying to evaluate the arguments on their merits will tend to lead to an erroneous conclusion more often than simply trying to gauge the credibility of the various disputants. The problem, of course, is gauging your own competence level well enough to know when to assess arguments and when to assess arguers. Thanks to the perverse phenomenon psychologists have dubbed the Dunning-Kruger effect, those who are least competent tend to have the most wildly inflated estimates of their own knowledge and competence. They don’t know enough to know that they don’t know, as it were.
Again, I thought that was pretty interesting. One last note…the second book is almost completed. When it is completed I will go back to writing posts that don’t involve me cutting and pasting.
- DJ
The WoW Journal Comments Policy
Our research on the NBA was summarized HERE.
The Technical Notes at wagesofwins.com provides substantially more information on the published research behind Wins Produced and Win Score
Wins Produced, Win Score, and PAWSmin are also discussed in the following posts:
Simple Models of Player Performance
What Wins Produced Says and What It Does Not Say
Introducing PAWSmin — and a Defense of Box Score Statistics
Finally, A Guide to Evaluating Models contains useful hints on how to interpret and evaluate statistical models.
17 responses so far ↓
Byron // May 26, 2009 at 9:24 pm
I’m pretty sure I actually don’t know anything about anything. Does that mean I’m incredibly well-informed? And if I’m incredibly well informed, why do I incorrectly think I don’t know anything about anything? Or isn’t it possible I really am just dumb?
mrparker // May 27, 2009 at 12:39 am
Where’s Erich. Its time to compare notes.
Phil // May 27, 2009 at 2:10 am
Byron, the other side to the Dunning-Kruger study was that the most competent people tend to slightly underestimate themselves. So anything is possible!
Michael // May 27, 2009 at 5:14 am
The Dunning-Kruger effect actually makes a lot of sense intuitively. People will naturally assume themselves to be at least average (or even slightly above) in most areas, which would obviously mean that those the furthest from average in an area would show the greatest divergence from perception and reality in that area. Kind of like how everyone thinks they are a ‘good’ driver, even though statistically this is improbable. Interesting read.
SM // May 27, 2009 at 5:30 am
The Sanchez passage provides a very apt analogy. There is a consensus among those who study climate change that man-made climate change is a reality, while global warming denial is no longer taken seriously. Similarly, there is a consensus among basketball analysts, both professionals and serious amateurs, that 1) players who score at league-average efficiency have significant value and 2) individual rebound totals massively overstate players’ value because of diminishing returns. As a result, wins produced is viewed in the expert community much as global warming denial is viewed among scientists — as a joke.
What surprises me, of course, is to see the analogy highlighted on this website. Perhaps the new book features a repudiation or major revision of wins produced?
ilikeflowers // May 27, 2009 at 7:35 am
SM, you’re post argues against itself.
ilikeflowers // May 27, 2009 at 7:36 am
Doh!
you’re > your
DSM // May 27, 2009 at 7:44 am
Average WS/40 of all NCAA players (08-09 season):
C 8.09
C-PF 7.06
PF 7.30
PF-SF 6.86
SF 5.95
SF-SG 5.13
SG 3.85
SG-PG 3.67
PG 3.63
I used a formula to identify who fell into each category to remove the weird biases of inaccurately labeled players (i.e., someone called a forward in the media guide who played like a shooting guard, both in physical size and statistical profile).
Dave, have you worked on the math of removing biases in win score in college based on strength of schedules in college? I used a system based on the Pomeroy opponent offensive and defensive efficiencies, and scaled stats proportionately (i.e., UNC opponents had a DE of 96.2, so pts scored by UNC players are scaled at 101.1/96.2 ratio.) Is that rational? I’m sure there is a better way to adjust for opponents, but that was the quick and dirty approach I found to make sense… (Incidentally, Ty Lawson was better than Tyler Hansbrough… and so was Wayne Ellington!)
John H // May 27, 2009 at 8:58 am
Does anyone know if there is a place I can see updated Win Scores for the NBA? I know there used to be a site with every player and every game, but it stopped updating at some point.
Thanks
P.S. I absolutely love WoW. The book is my go-to birthday/holiday gift for all sports fans I know. It changed the way I watch the NBA and improved my understanding of what makes a great player/team. Go Lakers!
Michael // May 27, 2009 at 11:22 am
…H for Hollinger? :-p
Michael // May 27, 2009 at 11:29 am
“There is a consensus among those who study climate change that man-made climate change is a reality, while global warming denial is no longer taken seriously.”
This is absolutely untrue. For one example http://www.petitionproject.org/
“wins produced is viewed in the expert community much as global warming denial is viewed among scientists — as a joke”
This is also untrue. Most ‘experts’ I have seen who have paid attention to it have taken it quite seriously.
Jason E. // May 27, 2009 at 12:05 pm
DSM, I’m intrigued by your formula for identifying position. That could be a very useful contribution to many of these debates. Could you share the algorithm?
John // May 27, 2009 at 10:12 pm
The environment is a very complex system, so it amazes me how confident many people seem to be in making these huge claims and/or predictions about climate change. All of the “damning” data that I’ve seen, and in the end it’s data and data alone that proves the case either way, comes off as ambiguous at best upon careful analysis. Of course, when I remember how much those pushing the “consensus” stand to profit from any measure taken against climate change, my amazement gradually disappears
Ranking Every Player for the Boston Celtics since 1977 « The Wages of Wins Journal // May 28, 2009 at 11:03 am
[...] NBA Mid-Season Analysis: 2008-09 ← A Comment on the NBA Draft and Some Cutting and Pasting [...]
DSM // May 28, 2009 at 11:44 am
Jason E:
I just used an empirical/eyeball test algorithm to get close. The inputs were:
Height
Weight
Listed Position
Rebounds/Points
Assists/Rebounds
Blocks/Steals
3PA/FGA
Assists/Turnovers
Assists/FGA
Turnovers/FGA
Rebounds/minute
I then roughly put those factors together to spit out a number between ~0 and 5. I adjusted simply based on what the results were for teams I knew quite well.
I’m sure a more rigorous system could be developed to categorize players more accurately.
Ranking Every Player in the History of the Los Angeles Lakers since 1977 « The Wages of Wins Journal // May 31, 2009 at 3:12 pm
[...] Unfortunately, this is not how one should do analysis. When we do research we start with the evidence and work to the conclusion. And if we think a conclusion is incorrect, we have to actually go out and find sufficient evidence that allows us to reach a different conclusion. Oh, and by sufficient, I mean the new evidence shouldn’t be accurately described as “horseshit”. [...]
Troy Hatlevig // June 2, 2009 at 5:55 am
If you’re like me, when you read the paragraphs on horseshit, your first reaction was, “No kidding, those people who peddle educated-sounding nonsense are really annoying.” But my second, more interesting reaction was, “I wonder how many times I’ve been taken in by a B.S. artist peddling nonsense in a plausible way to me?”
I’ve got to be more careful.