Also posted at The Sports Economist.
For the second consecutive season point guard Steve Nash has won the NBA’s MVP award. With two MVP awards can anyone question that Nash is the greatest point guard in the NBA today? Well The Daily Dime at ESPN.com has reached a different conclusion. The Daily Dime asked thirteen of ESPN’s NBA experts: Who are the greatest point guards in NBA history? Of the top ten players chosen, only three currently play the game: Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, and Gary Payton. Sixteen year veteran Payton is no longer a starting point guard in the NBA. Kidd and Nash, though, are still the leaders on their respective teams. And of these two, ESPN’s NBA experts rank Kidd the highest. This is odd, since Kidd received no votes for MVP this season.
Who is right – the MVP voters or ESPN’s experts? People can talk about leadership, attitude, hustle, etc…, but outcomes in basketball depend primarily on four factors: Shooting efficiency, rebounds, turnovers, and steals (or the ability to create turnovers). This past season Nash was clearly the more efficient scorer, and if we throw in Nash’s advantage in assists, he had a greater impact on the efficiency of his teammates as well. With respect to gaining and maintaining possession of the ball, though, Kidd was the better player. Kidd garnered more rebounds and steals, and committed fewer turnovers.
So who is better? In The Wages of Wins we explain how to measure a player’s Wins Produced, which takes into account all the statistics tabulated for the player. Analyzing the 2005-06 season we see that Kidd produced 23.7 wins, while Nash’s Wins Produced equaled 18.6. Both ranked in the top ten in the league, but of the two, Kidd ranked the highest. If we extend our analysis back in time, looking at each season since 2000-01 – when Nash first became a consistent regular season performer – a similar story is told. From 2000-01 to 2004-05, Nash had 60 Wins Produced, a performance that ranks him among the top performers in the game. Kidd, though, produced 94.5 wins across this same time period. Again, Kidd is more productive.
Does this mean Nash should not have been chosen MVP? There does not seem to be any consensus on what “most valuable” means, so I guess one can argue that by some definition Nash is the MVP. If we look strictly at “most productive”, though, ESPN’s NBA experts had it right. Of course, many of ESPN’s experts probably voted for the MVP award. So some of these people might have had it wrong also. Then again — and this is getting confusing — maybe “greatest ever” is defined differently from “most valuable.” Perhaps we could settle this debate easily if people took one of the first steps we are taught to take in research: Define your terms!
– DJ
Wages of Wins Journal 
Zach Burleson
June 2, 2006
I think Steve Nash deserves MVP the way he led his team to the playoffs without Amare and Kurt Thomas.I believe that with Steve and Amare along with Kurt they will have their best seson and maybe even make it to the championship.They might do it this year!
tom griffiths
June 13, 2006
your first paragraph is ridiculous DJ. you try to equate the fact that the ESPN people rating Kidd above Nash is odd because he won no MVP votes. hello, all time great players are not decided on the basis of 2 seasons! overall kidd is infinitely better than nash when evaluating their whole careers. indeed, only mark stein known as a huge pro nasher, voted him higher than kidd in the espn poll. kidd is a better scorer and better passer all time, he is an infinitely better defender, all first defensive team on 4 occasions and is one of the best stealing point guards ever. he also led a nets team to back to back finals appearances. with the mvp, you cant argue really, but it is based on 1 season and if you take away nash’s 2 mvp seasons, he would be nowhere near this conversation with kidd. nash has never led a team to a finals and even his stats dont equate to kidd’s. j-kidd is one of the finest point guards of all time, nash is not. answer: KIDD.
Economy news and blog
January 11, 2007
Very amazing site! I wish I could do something as nice as you did…mary
rachael
January 22, 2007
i love MN!
unsimplified
June 18, 2007
The most accurate assessment is because there are only pro-kidd and pro-nash opinions, each side dwells on every little detail about what each player can do better than the other. Now for the REAL basketball fans out there with basketball intelligence higher than the average sport-stats reliant so-called fan, here’s some facts (not opinions) that neither side can argue about.
1. nba rule changes have altered the entire structure of the game thus change player behavior. how this applies to comparisons of nash with other past point guards is that there is no hand-checking rule, so frequent penetration into the paint the way nash and tony parker do it today, you simply don’t see it back in the days. It is a facet of the game that existed then. the reasoning is simple, a guy puts his hand on your hip, which hinders your movement, also it allows them better anticipate where you’ll likely move next, and also increases the chance of a successful steal. how today’s players benefit from this rule change is that crossovers if used effectively can allow uninhibited penetration as long as you’re a quick guy. what some people mean when they say tim hardaway is impressive is that he was a pioneer of the ‘killer crossover’ when this hand checking rule existed.
2. the nba nowadays legalized zone defense, which means you can setup a 3-2 zone that has 3 perimeter players with the guy on the right or the guy on the left helping out the middle guy, whichever way the opposing point guard wishes to penetrate. 3-2 zone stops guard penetration. so why is nash still penetrating so effectively? credit that to pick and roll, no hand-checking, and the fact that if the middle guy gets help, there will be an automatic 3-pointer by the open man nashed just passed the ball to. the person guarding nash can only run over or under the screen. with the hand check you can create a tiny bit more space if you run over the screen. or you can slightly hinder/slowdown nash if you go under the screen. but hand checking is illegal today so forget all of that. compare stockton and malone pick’n roll with nash/stoudamire to see the extra freedom in movement that nash gets today.
3. there is a big difference in the style which both players pass (that’s their role, right? being point guards) phoenix suns players under mike d’antonni’s coaching tend to ‘position’ themselves to be in a scoring position. i.e. get out in the open court and run, or stay around the three point line to catch and shoot or pump fake and drive. this is d’antonni’s philosophy, which is making the run n’ gun suns popular in the nba. it is d’antonni’s style that makes almost every player on his team a high % 3-point shooter, which is in part responsible for nash’s assist numbers. not to take anything away from nash, he does do some flashy passes. kidd, while he does play with guys who run the floor, it’s not like every player is lightning quick and a good 3-point shooter. he tends to ‘seek’ out teamates who are in a good position to score, in other words he creates an offense for his team. go have a think about how a guy like mikey moore managed to lead the nba in field goal %.
end of facts. opinions:
it is up to fans’ preference whose passing they like more, but to be fair nash fans should note that kidd had very eye-popping passes in his younger days too, which noone seems to remember. but a great passer is not defined strictly by how flashy he is.
statistics shouldnt be relied on too heavily, its too easy to manipulate it and be biased. rather think of what they reflect – what kind of game was played such that these stats resulted.
and even if people genuinely think nash deserved back to back mvp at least acknowledge that kidd’s play a few years ago was not inferior if not superior to nash’s current form
plus, the dallas team nash left is very similar to the suns, nash’s style remained the same and rule changes happened to promote nash’s style
people are always too quick to be judgmental when they read about kidd’s ugly divorce, the fact is noone knows the details.all they know are the sensational claims made by both parties.
lastly, i’ll keep my opinions about nash’s two mvps to myself since everyone’s opinion is subjective (even the coaches who voted). What really impressed me is not the triple double that kidd averaged in the 2007 playoffs, but i salute his greatness by doing well at what he doesn’t excel at (hitting 5-7 threes per game) and leadership by example (lots of steals and rebounds to inspire teamates to play defense). It is this ‘doing whatever the team needs done’ that makes jason kidd a great point guard like magic johnson who started at center for injured kareem abduljabbar, scoring 42 points and winning the championship.
cool
November 6, 2007
Steve Nash is the better player he has been mvp twice in a row and how many times has Jason Kidd been mvp………..0. Dont get me wrong Jason Kidd is a good player but Stebe nash is great!!!1
S. Graham
November 7, 2007
I like Kidd better. He get’s alot of triple double and is a great defensive player. Nash is a much better scorer but doesn’t play defense.
joe
January 7, 2008
I’m so tired of these irrational explanations for why some moron would take jason kidd over steve nash. first off if you take both players in their primes, or top five seasons nash posts more assists, points and astronomically higher field goal percentages. I took the liberty of looking up many of the all time great pgs in the history of basketball and one thing remains fairly consistenant, all of the players avg double digit scoring avgs along with near double digit assist totals, but of all the greats magic, isiah, frazier, stockton, monroe, archibald no one shot as puchridly low percentages as jason kidd, who barely eclipses 40% on his career, in fact he’s not even with in 5% points of the next closer legendary point guard. The fact is that he is an offensive liabilty in the half court and grossly overated. Whether you haters will admit it or not steve nash is pheonix’s system and is most skilled ball handlers to ever play the game, and a much more threatning offensive scorer than kidd could ever dream of being. In the clutch pheonix runs pick and rolls with nash, while kidd is forced to defer to a washed up vince carter or jefferson in years past!!!!!!!!!! REBOUNDING IS ALOT LESS IMPORTANT QUALITY THAN JUMP SHOOTING IN A POINT GUARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jason
January 7, 2008
I’m not sure if it is the all-cap conclusion followed by an excessive number of exclamation points, the consistent misspelling “pheonix” (or perhaps “consistenant” misspelling), the seeming inability to capitalize names, or inventive word puchridly that made me laugh more.
Unknown
March 24, 2008
Unsimplified, you mentioned that Dallas’ system is very similar to the Suns’. Now that Jason Kidd wears a Mavs uniform, we can truly compare them, right? Recently, Dallas has not been doing so well. They are 0-8 against teams with a winning record (above 50%) since aquiring Jason Kidd. Not only is Jason Kidd shooting worse, his assists have dropped as well, even though he is playing alongside Dirk.
Nash, meanwhile, has been…Nash. The Suns took a hard hit when they lost Marion, but they have bounced back nicely while beating tough teams like the Rockets.
So who is better? According to you, both players play in a similar system with similar rules. However, Dallas has been struggling since they aquired Kidd, while Phoenix has been pretty consistent, even with Shaq.
Kevin
July 19, 2008
Alot of these people commenting are obviously bias. The neutral, and honest, fact is as follows. Like one guy said on here, you explain why Mikki Moore lead the league in FG percentage. If you look at their COLLECTIVE CAREER, you will see that (A) Jason Kidd has accomplished more, and (B) he has played at the same level (if not elevated level) over his career. People only started getting on the Nash wagon when he got sent to PHX and played in a system DESIGNED for stats. Im willing to bet none of the people who biasly defend Nash being better were fans of his when HE played in Dallas. Let us have a look at the stats shall we?
The end all be all evaluation:
Steve Nash NBA career highlights
* NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
* NBA All-Star: 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
* All-NBA
* First Team: 2005, 2006, 2007
* Second Team: 2008
* Third Team: 2003
* NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6)
* NBA regular season leader for total assists: 2005 (861), 2006 (826), 2007 (884)
* NBA regular season leader for free-throw percentage: 2006 (.921)
* NBA regular season leader for assists per 48 minutes: 2004 (12.6), 2005 (16.1), 2006 (14.2), 2007 (15.8), 2008 (15.5)
* Lou Marsh Trophy (Canadian athlete of the year): 2005
* Lionel Conacher Award (Canadian male athlete of the year): 2005, 2006
* J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (NBA award for outstanding citizenship and community service): 2007
Jason Kidd NBA highlights
* 9-time NBA All-Star: 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008
* 6-time All-NBA:
* First Team: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004
* Second Team: 2003
* 9-time All-Defensive Selection:
* First Team : 1999, 2001, 2002, 2006
* Second Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007
* NBA co-Rookie of the Year: 1995 (with Grant Hill)
* NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1995
* 5-time NBA regular-season leader, assists per game: 1999 (10.8), 2000 (10.1), 2001 (9.8), 2003 (8.9), 2004 (9.2)
* 3-time NBA regular-season leader, total assists: 1999 (539), 2001 (753), 2003 (711)
* NBA regular-season leader, total steals: 2002 (175)
* NBA All-Star Skills Challenge champion: 2003
* One of only two players in NBA history to record at least 14,000 points, 6,600 rebounds, and 9,000 assists in his playing career (the other is Oscar Robertson).
* In the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals vs. the Boston Celtics, Kidd averaged 17.5 points, 11.2 rebounds, and 10.2 assists per game, becoming one of only two players in NBA history to average a triple-double in a playoff series of six or more games (the other is Magic Johnson). Kidd did it again in the 2007 Eastern Conference First Round vs. the Toronto Raptors, averaging 14.0 points, 10.0 rebounds, and 13.2 assists per game.
* One of only five players in NBA history to lead the league in assist-per-game average for 3 consecutive seasons (the others are Bob Cousy, Oscar Robertson, John Stockton and Steve Nash).
* Holds New Jersey Nets franchise records for career 3-pointers (729), career assists (4,090), assists in a season (808), steals (876), triple-doubles (49), and triple-doubles in a season (12, 2006-2007).
* One of five players to average a triple-double for a playoff series, joining Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson and Fat Lever.
* One of only three players (Fat Lever, Wilt Chamberlain) in NBA history to post at least 15 points, 15 rebounds, and 15 assists in a playoff game.
* One of three players to average a triple-double for multiple playoff series, joining Magic Johnson and Wilt Chamberlain.
* Second player in NBA history to average a triple-double for an entire postseason. Kidd finished with averages of 14.6 points, 10.9 rebounds and 10.9 assists in 12 games during the 2007 NBA playoffs.
o Joined Oscar Robertson who averaged 28.8 points, 11.0 assists and 11.0 rebounds in 4 games in a 3-1 first-round loss in 1962.
* Jason Kidd is the first person in 10 years to obtain a triple-double for 3 games in a row with 13 points, 12 assists, and 11 rebounds (1/08/2008).
* One of three players to amass 700 assists and 500 rebounds in one season. Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and Jason Kidd have done this 6 times.
* ranks 2nd in playoffs triple-doubles (11, as of May 12, 2007)
* ranks 3rd in regular season triple-doubles (100, as of April 17, 2008)
* ranks 4th in guard rebounds (6,908, as of April 17, 2008)
* ranks 5th in assist-per-game average (9.3, as of April 17, 2008)
* ranks 5th in assists (9,497, as of April 17, 2008)
* ranks 11th in steals (2,038, as of April 17, 2008)
* ranks 11th in 3-pointers made (1,355, as of April 17, 2008)
* ranks 12th in steal-per-game average (1.99, as of April 17, 2008
Three statistically brilliant (non-defense-playing) seasons on “America’s Team” alongside a bunch of other running and gunning All-Stars that play in a system BUILT for statistics (and not play-off wins) doesn’t push ANYONE into the top discussions to me, or anyone else. He has helped make the Suns entertaining and presented a real fun style of play. And for that he is loved more than anyone I can remember in modern basketball. But don’t let that fan love and media frenzy for an all-around nice guy confuse you with all-time greatness. We can’t forget Nash’s GLARING weaknesses defensively. In two of the Spurs’ wins over the Suns this post season, Tony Parker had 32 and 30 points. Is it reasonable to believe the Suns might have won one or both of those games if Nash could have done more to stop the opposing point guard?
Jason Kidd, for example, is not nearly the shooter Nash is; however, Kidd’s exceptional rebounding and defense make up for that. Over the course of a career, Kidd has also been the better passer of the two. Kidd has led the league in assists per game five times and been in the top five twelve times. Nash has led the league three times and been in the top five just four times. If you look at the players listed in their entire careers, it’s clear that Jason Kidd, John Stockton (assists per game leader 9 straight seasons), and Bob Cousy (assists per game leader 8 straight seasons) have had superior careers. Let us also not forget that Jason Kidd and Nash have been playing for nearly the same amount of time, yet Jason Kidd has more playoff and/or finals appearances. When he went to NJ he turned people like Kenyon Martin into phenoms, and a losing franchise into championship contenders for the entire stint he was there. Every teaam he has been sent to, he has made the players better. Where as Nash has been in PHX for years now and has yet to elevate his team mates. As far as the guy who said that Kidd/Dallas was struggling, you could say the same thing about PHX with the Shaq trade. It’s not about him as an individual, it’s about making a trade HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON and for a position that impacts the flow of the game heavily. You give JKidd this offseason of camp with the Mavs, and see how well they do next season. Oh and for the record, when he showed up in Dallas the entire teams average PPG and FG percentage increased, and Dirks FG percentage increased by nearly 6 percent.
When it’s all said and done I can see Jason Kidd being in a high top five spot of all time great point guards, while I have trouble seeing Steve Nash squeeze in the top ten.
Nash being better than Jason Kidd is a silly discussion. I love watching Nash play, but Nash never put up these numbers in Dallas. You also have to agree it’s odd that in his career in Dallas (and arguabley PHX) he failed to make the players around him better, while just half a season in Dallas Jason Kidd has brought up mostly all of his team mates points per game and FG percentage; most noticable in Dirk. For most of his career, Nash was a very good but hardly legendary player. A few years of stellar play in a system that exagerates statistics doesn’t qualify a player to challenge guys who played at the same level for 10+ years, and to insinuate otherwise is not only ignorant but it’s an insult to people like Magic, Cousy, Stockton, and yes..Kidd…who have played at the same or higher level their entire careers. And while the back-to-back MVPs are nice, I think most non-biased observers would agree that the NBA has a habit of giving the award to players that they want to use to cultivate their image, rather than the real MVP. In the past four years, the MVP’s team hasn’t made the Finals.
Hayden Ray
June 28, 2011
Okay this is really simple…. from 2004-2009 Steve Nash shot 50 % or more. Steve Nash has lead the league in assist many times in the past ten years. Steve Nash has won two MVP awards but the strange thing is his stats were the same two years after. Steve Nash people say he is bad on defense (which is not true) everyone knows in a fast break offense your point guard has to leak hes the first person on the ball so he forces the point guard inside…. his steals avg wise are almost as good as Jason Kidd. Everyone talks about Steve Nash not getting a lot of rebounds ( well guys its probably because they don’t focus on rebounds its called FAST BREAK OFFENSE thats why the phoenix suns are the worst rebounding team DUH!!!) you cant run down court if your under the basket looking for the ball. If your only argument for Jason Kidd is he gets more rebounds and plays better defense… first of all Steve Nash isn’t bad on defense..there defense is meant for the point guard to score… because everyone knows if your point guard is your leading scorer you cant win against good teams. That is why tony Parker and Chris Paul have such good games against them. If you know anything about basketball.. and you actually watch them both Steve Nash starts with the ball in hand 90% of the time you know why because the offense starts with him… Jason Kidd about 30% of the time, list of players that Jason Kidd gave the ball to start the offense Dirk, JJ Barea( which played way better when he was on the floor and J Kidd on bench just saying) Vince Carter, Kerry Kittles.. Let me put it this way J Kidd was so good the Phoenix Suns traded him?????? The phoenix suns will only trade Steve Nash if they had to because of age.. Another people say Jason Kidd is better overall well where i come from you got to beable to shoot to be called good ( Lebron, Jason Kidd, Rondo) you say hes good at rebounding and defense and assist i don’t want a post i want a general on the court…. Jason Kidd isnt the General im sorry but you guys that think Steve Nash is’t better need to watch tennis or something because this isn’t your sport..