Two months ago CBS announced that Clark Kellogg would replace Billy Packer as the network’s lead college basketball analyst. Packer has announced 34 consecutive Final Fours, so an era has ended in sports broadcasting. For Kellogg to match Packer he will have to still be announcing the Final Four in 2042 (when he is 80 years old). And if that happens, Kellogg will have certainly establish himself as a legendary figure in broadcasting.
Although this would be impressive, I think Kellogg should be remembered for something else. It turns out that Kellogg is not just a basketball analyst, he was also an amazing professional basketball player.
Forgetting Kellogg
For many fans, this might seem hard to believe. Kellogg was the 8th overall choice in the 1982 draft and was named to the All-Rookie team in 1983. But he never played in an All-Star game. He was never named to an All-NBA team. And he never even played in an NBA playoff game. So how could he be considered a “great” basketball player?
To answer this question, let’s first note that Kellogg was drafted by the Indiana Pacers. And due to injuries, his career only lasted five seasons. In fact, he was only a full-time starter in three seasons (playing just 23 games across his last two years). In his three full seasons the Pacers only won 68 games, or less than 23 victories per year. When you play such a short period of time — and on a bad team in a very small market — we may not be surprised that your career gets forgotten.
Kellogg and the King
But when we look at the numbers we see that Kellogg was indeed an amazing basketball player. And to make this argument, I will compare what Kellogg did his first three seasons to Bernard King.
Why King?
The first three years of Kellogg’s career also coincide with the time when King was in his prime. In both 1984 and 1985, King was name to the All-NBA first team. The other forward named to these teams was Larry Bird (Bird was on the first team every season from 1980 to 1988). Consequently, one could argue that King was considered the second best forward in the NBA at this time.
But despite this perception, it’s clear that King was no Kellogg. When we look at Wins Produced – reported in Table One – we see that the player perceived to be the second best forward was actually less productive than the young – and quite anonymous — Kellogg.
Table One: Comparing the Career Performances of Clark Kellogg and Bernard King
From 1982-83 to 1984-85, Kellogg produced between 13 and 14 wins each season. Kellogg’s average WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] was 0.247 (average is 0.100).
Looking at Table One we see that King was also above average in each season. But his production lagged behind Kellogg. Across these three seasons – when King was an All-NBA selection – he only averaged 7.8 Wins Produced with a 0.163 WP48. Again, these are good marks. But not what we saw from Kellogg.
Driving Perceptions
So what explains the differences in perceptions?
First there is a difference in where each player played. King spent these three seasons in New York. As noted, Kellogg played in Indiana. King was also a more prolific scorer. Across these three seasons King scored 26.6 points per game while Kellogg only scored 19.3 points per contest.
Although each of these factors impact perceptions, I would draw attention to a different issue. Previously I noted that the Pacers were a particularly bad team at this time. If we look at the rosters of these Indiana teams we find the following above average performers not named Kellogg (among those who played at least 500 minutes):
1982-83: Billy Knight [0.154 WP48], Clemon Johnson [0.125 WP48]
1983-84: None
1984-85: Steve Stipanovich [0.110 WP48], Jim Thomas [0.101 WP48]
Other than these players – and Kellogg – every other player who played at least 500 minutes was below average. And several teammates were actually in the negative range.
When we look at the average performance of Kellogg’s teammates – reported in Table One – we see little Kellogg’s supporting cast offered. Across these three seasons the average WP48 of Kellogg’s teammates as only 0.034. To put this in perspective, the average performance of the teammates of the leading Wins Producer on each team in 2007-08 was 0.076.1
For further perspective, consider the performance of King’s teammates. In each of these three seasons King’s teammates posted an average WP48 of 0.095. When we see this number we begin to see why King was regarded so highly. He was a prolific scorer, playing in a large market, with above average teammates. Such a combination is difficult for the media to resist.
On the flip-side, we can now see why Kellogg’s NBA career has been basically forgotten. He was a scorer, but not as prolific as King. He also played in a small market with very bad teammates. And that combination – even if you are a productive player – is not going to result in much love from the media.
The story of Clark Kellogg brings to mind the story told about both Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce prior to the 2007-08. As the following posts indicate, both Garnett and Pierce spent much of their respective careers on bad teams.
Because their teams often failed, the perceptions of both Garnett and Pierce were not quite as high as the performance of each player would suggest.
These stories all highlight the same issue in the coverage of team sports. As I have noted before, the purpose of tracking statistics for players is to separate a player from his team. It should not be the case in sports – where we have detailed measures of player performance – that our evaluation of a player is dictated by his teammates. But often we find that players are not separated from teammates. Specifically, often teammates dictate perceptions of a player’s value. The story of Kellogg and King once again tell this story. Kellogg was clearly the more productive player. But King was believed to be the better player because he played in a larger market with better teammates. As a consequence, Kellogg may be remembered someday as a legendary broadcaster. But his performance in the NBA is not something many will remember.
More Numbers
Let me close by noting why Kellogg was more productive than King.
Table Two: Comparing the Career Averages of Clark Kellogg and Bernard King
As Table Two indicates, Kellogg was above average with respect to everything except turnovers, blocked shots, and personal fouls. Although he was an above average scorer, he was truly outstanding on the boards.
Looking at King, we see a player who could not best Kellogg in any non-scoring category. Yes, King was a prolific scorer. But he really didn’t excel at any other facet of the game.
As is true today, though, King’s scoring ability – coupled with his other advantages – was enough to garner much acclaim. In contrast, Kellogg — despite all he did on the court — will probably only be remembered as a broadcaster. And he can thank his teammates – and a media that generally can’t separate a player for his team – for people forgetting an outstanding (albeit brief) NBA career.
– DJ
The WoW Journal Comments Policy
Our research on the NBA was summarized HERE.
The Technical Notes at wagesofwins.com provides substantially more information on the published research behind Wins Produced and Win Score
Wins Produced, Win Score, and PAWSmin are also discussed in the following posts:
Simple Models of Player Performance
What Wins Produced Says and What It Does Not Say
Introducing PAWSmin — and a Defense of Box Score Statistics
Finally, A Guide to Evaluating Models contains useful hints on how to interpret and evaluate statistical models.
Owen
September 17, 2008
Great post. Very surprising about Kellog. Clearly, he lacked the ability to make his teammates better that all the great ones have. :-)
Not that surprising about King. Somewhat lackluster WP numbers for such a big media star, but he still might be one of the ten best Knicks of my lifetime, which is a sad commentary on the team.
When do we get a rundown on the greatness of Anthony Mason?
Mountain
September 17, 2008
I have a vague memory of him as a player but a little more memory of talk about how good he was in college.
I did take him in several fantasy games where he was eligible to play both small forward and power forward or even primarily PF
http://www.whatifsports.com/nba-l/profile_player.asp?pid=1513
. How much he really played at each spot I don’t know from memory but in a comparison to average small forward his rebounding will standout and if he was at PF a fair amount it should be noted. He was considered a PF in draft reports.
http://www.whatifsports.com/nba-l/profile_player.asp?pid=1513
Mountain
September 17, 2008
I have a vague memory of him as a player but a little more memory of talk about how good he was in college.
I did take him in several fantasy games where he was eligible to play both small forward and power forward or even primarily PF
http://www.whatifsports.com/nba-l/profile_player.asp?pid=1513
How much he really played at each spot I don’t know from memory but in a comparison to average small forward his rebounding will standout and if he was at PF a fair amount it should be noted.
dberri
September 17, 2008
Mountain,
I looked at the roster and minutes played on these Indiana teams and it looks like Kellogg was primarily a small forward. But even if he played power forward he was still more productive than King.
Tball
September 17, 2008
The other problem Kellogg had was his career only lasted five seasons. There have been great players, media appreciated and otherwise, that are forgotten if their careers flame out too quickly due to injury or other cause.
Also, I think the media were a little slower in giving love to the rookies/younger players 25 years ago. And the sports media was a lot more parochial, meaning it was a local media that paid attention and wrote about their local teams during the season and playoff teams during the playoffs. Smaller markets may not get as much attention as the larger markets presently, but they get far more attention than they used to receive.
Had Kellogg been on the Knicks, with King’s teammates, I think it is far more likely he’d have received those All-Star votes. Has a Kellogg (a well-above average player for at least 3 consecutive seasons) ever gone unnoticed in a large market?
todd2
September 17, 2008
Thanks for the great article. I grew up in Ohio and followed him from his high school days. There was one season when he was one of four players in the NBA to average 20 pts. and 10 rebounds a game. If memory serves the others were Malone, Bird and Terry Cummings.
Mountain
September 17, 2008
Sorry for the multi post and it didn’t come out exactly as it should have. Hazard of a late night, quick post.
Looking at 82-83 Pacers Kellogg might not have played PF much that season. Looking at 84-85 I’d guess from total minutes of big like player he played at least 1/3rd his time at PF.
Kellogg is an example of a great rebounding SF capable player. This is one way coaches and GMs can try to beat the competition. It is truly a swing position that can make a difference on rebounding, assists, scoring or defense or some combination.
His great rebounding when able to play SF was pretty appealing for me in the simplistic additive world of fantasy basketball.
How much great rebounding at SF pulls rebounds from other positions in real basketball is debatable and can vary by context and the details of players true rebounding ability or “value” beyond the boxscore rebound results. Boxouts, location & effort matter and affect team level results. And some rebounder mixes are more compatible than others. It takes higher level analysis than simply putting guys with good per game numbers together.
Those real world Pacers didn’t solve the overall puzzle. Kellogg was basically average on eFG% and TS%, though these figures came with high usage and poor teammates. He was not a great #1 scoring option. He might have been a fine #2 or an outstanding #3. I got to use him that way in the fantasy league.
King was tick or two better on eFG% and TS%. If you were looking for a star scorer he fit that role better.
I looked for a good comparison for Kellogg but it was hard.
dberri
September 17, 2008
Mountain,
Not sure I buy what you are saying about “higher level analysis” but that is a story for another day.
You appear to be someone with a sense of basketball history. What can you tell me about Johnny Moore?
Continental
September 17, 2008
I quickly applied the Arbitrarian’s SPI Style Trichotomy to Clark Kellog, and I offer the following player comparisons:
Player (Scoring Index, Perimeter Index, Interior Index)
Clark Kellog (0.70, 0.29, 0.50)
Terry Cummings (0.65, 0.37, 0.54)
Antawn Jamison (0.77, 0.28, 0.52)
Cedric Ceballos (0.75, 0.30, 0.51)
Note: I only used Kellog’s statistics from his three healthy seasons.
Continental
September 17, 2008
I notably left out the player that Professor Berri compares Kellogg to in his article, Bernard King.
From 1982-1985:
Bernard King (0.90, 0.28, 0.28)
Mountain
September 18, 2008
Thanks Continental. I like the Cummings comparison best. I was trying to eyeball a Kellogg similar looking at a David Sparks 7 type dataset and didn’t immediately find as good a match.
Dave I think I understand your reservations about my phrase
“higher level analysis”. I meant that I personally believe there are a lot of relevant dimensions / statistics for players and context and trying to get the optimal team “fit” & results can benefit from many level, extended, thoughtful analysis (substituting for the not as well chosen, somewhat abrasive word “higher” in this context). And I should pull back or clarify that I do not mean to be dismissive about moving from individual quality / performance to team performance that is the bulk of the task but I do think some awareness of levels of interactive effects between teammates in specific lineups is called for, as they are the actual form by which teams play or are expressed.
Mountain
September 18, 2008
Dave I don’t consider myself that strong a NBA historian, not doing historical research in the manner that some do at apbr.org- perhaps someone from there will or could be of assistance. Like perhaps David Friedman of http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/
I did start watching some NBA in the 70s but these days I hardly ever think about pre 1988 NBA and not often about pre 2004.
I have run across the name Johnny Moore some but I actually have no memory of seeing him play as his was on the pre-Robinson Spurs and post Gervin good years and perhaps that is why you mention him after the Kellogg case?
Back them national TV probably didn’t show the Spurs much and if I saw those teams there are other names my eyes would have gravitated towards more for various reasons.
adamfox
September 18, 2008
Hi Dave,
What are your thoughts on Kevin Pelton’s article?
His assessment of Shaq’s career is rosier than yours but there are similar overall outcomes.
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=415
Dave
September 19, 2008
The most talented team Kellogg ever played on was in college, with Ohio State teammates Herb Williams and Kelvin Ransey.
Having seen him play a lot in the Big 10, I remember being surprised by how smooth and — well, square — he sounded as a broadcaster. As a player he had a flashy style somewhere between Mark Aguirre and Carmelo Anthony. He loved to palm the ball and extend it overhead on the drive. Too skilled for most bigs, too strong for many forwards, bestial rebounder and a smart, willing passer.
PS — Mountain is right. Friedman might be your best choice for Johnny Moore, since he interviewed his backcourt partner James Silas.