The Wages of Wins Network current consists of the following five blogs:
In the past few days a number of excellent posts have been offered in these forums.
- As already noted, Shawn Ryan has offered a tremendous review of the 2010 NBA draft.
- Ty Willihnganz has offered a comparison of the 2010-11 Miami Heat and the 1995-96 Chicago Bulls.
- Andres Alvarez has offered a comprehensive review of the transactions of Mark Warkentien (the general manager of the Denver Nuggets)
- Arturo Galletti has reviewed how average AJDP48 has changed for each position across time.
Although each of these posts is excellent, I wanted to highlight a recent column offered by Robbie O’Malley. The following post reviews John Hollinger’s comparison of Carlos Boozer and Al Jefferson. Hollinger employs his Player Efficiency Rating to evaluate the two players. Robbie discusses the problems with this approach. If you have not seen this discussion, here it is in its entirety:
In his analysis of the Utah Jazz trade for PF Al Jefferson ESPN’s John Hollinger begins by posing to his readers this question – Would you trade Carlos Boozer for Al Jefferson?
Hollinger comes to the conclusion that he would make such a trade.He says, “You’d at least have to think about it. Jefferson is three years younger and had better numbers over the past three seasons. He can play center — Boozer cannot — which allows the Jazz to paper over Mehmet Okur‘s expected absence and move Andrei Kirilenko up to power forward in stretches, where he’s more effective anyway.”
I would probably agree with his assessment on opportunities this trade provides the Jazz in their front court. Kirilenko is feasibly more effective at PF and Jefferson is more suited to play center than Boozer. The thing that caught my eye, however, is that he believes Jefferson had better “numbers” over the past three years than Carlos Boozer. I wonder what numbers he is referring to? He is known in the media as “Professor Hollinger” and is ESPN’s only resident stat geek. If anyone should know numbers it is him. I suspect the main number he is referring to is his Player Efficiency Rating (PER) metric. On average, over the past three years Carlos Boozer has a PER of 20.18. Al Jefferson’s PER over this time period is 1.5 points better at 21.68. So, according to Hollinger’s own PER, Jefferson has been the better player.
Is PER accurate? Let’s take a closer look at each players numbers:
Table One: Boozer vs. Jefferson
Table Two: Boozer vs. Jefferson relative to average PF
Carlos Boozer is 6’9″ 260 pounds while Al Jefferson is 6’10″ 260 pounds. They’re roughly the same size, although Jefferson has a longer standing reach than Boozer. They have played roughly the same amount of time at 65-70 games a year at ~34 minutes a game. They both have played similar minutes at PF and C. Bottom line is that this is as about as apples to apples a comparison you can make between two players in the NBA.
What do we find when we look closer at the numbers? In terms of net possessions (REB + STL – TO) they are virtually equal. They are both very good at generating extra possessions for their teams. Carlos Boozer is the better passer but Al Jefferson is the better shot blocker – essentially a wash there. Boozer commits about an additional foul each game. So far this is the biggest separation we have. I wouldn’t think that should account for a 1.5 points better PER, however.
So what else is different? When we look at the scoring categories we see that Jefferson takes nearly 3 more shots per game that Boozer. This allows him to score less than half a point more per game. That doesn’t seem like it’s in Jefferson’s favor though. A half point after three shots is not very efficient. When we look at the chart we see that Boozer is a good amount more efficient than Jefferson. This means that Boozer gets more out of the shots he takes than Jefferson does. Making the shots you take is important for winning games.
But essentially – according to John Hollinger – if Boozer took an additional 2.71 shots, making only .44 at a 16% rate, he would be as efficient as Al Jefferson. That just doesn’t work! Boozer is the more efficient player. There is no value in taking more shots if you don’t make those shots. It’s so strange that a metric that is named Player Efficiency Rating, does not value efficiency! If you shoot more shots your PER will be higher – even if you are not an efficient scorer.
I don’t get it. John Hollinger has the same numbers available to him that everyone else does. He also has more monetary incentive and available time than most others to use to get it right. He has underrated Boozer before while overrating the ability to take shots – HERE. You can see an explanation of why a players PER will increase with additional shots and nothing else – HERE.
Hollinger goes on to make a few other comments. He notes that Jefferson is three years younger and cheaper. He fits the center position better than Boozer. These points I agree with. He also said that Boozer is probably the better defender – backed up HERE and HERE. So Boozer has better numbers and is the better defender. Jefferson is younger, cheaper, and more versatile. A Boozer for Jefferson swap hurts the Jazz.
But it wasn’t exactly a trade. Carlos Boozer left via free agency. The Jazz did not control whether he returned or not. They basically added young PF Al Jefferson for nothing. This is a good move by them. Despite what I said, Jefferson can be a very good player and is better than the nothing Boozer left behind. He’s just not as good as Boozer, at least not yet.
– post taken from Robbie O’Malley’s Roblog
robbieomalley
July 15, 2010
Great post Rob! That John Hollinger sure is incorrect.
arturogalletti
July 15, 2010
Rob,
This may be worth breaking out the Minitab for a followup!
robbieomalley
July 15, 2010
What is this minitab you speak of?
CF
July 15, 2010
One more X-Factor here is Deron Williams being in the picture. What will happen when Jefferson has a top 3 point guard sending him assists? What will happen to Boozer without them in Chicago?
Barring they don’t suffer any major injuries, it’s going to be very interesting to do a comparison of the two players at the end of the season. I’ll put my money on Jefferson coming out with the better numbers after a year in the hands of the Jazz organization.
Joe
July 15, 2010
It’s funny how the Hollinger and Berri camps despise each other when you’re so obviously cut from the same cloth.
-Dogmatic devotion to your pet statistic (PER vs. WP)
-Only accepts analysis that uses said stat
-Almost never cites or admits to the limitations of the stat
-Has no idea how to address defense, which is half of the game
-No actual basketball experience
-Routinely mocked by actual NBA pundits, players and executives
Hollinger does have one advantage, though. His stuff gets read by a national audience; you’ve recently debuted a WoW “network” that includes 5 blogs, solely written by and read by devotees to your stat. A viral circle-jerk.
By the way, are you going to be at the next MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, Berri? I noticed all the prominent faces of the NBA stats community except you seem to have been invited last time.
some dude
July 15, 2010
I am still wondering if Al will be able to play in a motion style offense. Perhaps Sloan will change things up?
Jefferson’s passing is much weaker than Boozer’s and I wonder if this would hurt them going forward.
arturogalletti
July 15, 2010
Joe,
You are reading the comments right?
Alvy
July 15, 2010
Boozer was assisted on 74% of his possessions, while Jefferson was only assisted on 45% last season, so maybe Jefferson can get more lay-ups and dunks in so he can increases his FG% once he plays in Utah.
dberri
July 15, 2010
Joe clearly disagrees with what is being said here. But he keeps coming back to voice his disagreement.
This lead me to wonder… are there people who like The Wages of Wins who do what Joe does at other websites? Hopefully that is not happening. A troll is still a troll. Even if the troll is sure they are right.
robbieomalley
July 15, 2010
Joe,
1. I hardly invoked WoW at all in this post. I noted statistics that are available to everyone and that everyone generally uses. I showed a big flaw in PER. That flaw has nothing to do with the validity of WoW. Do you disagree that a player increases his PER by simply taking more shots?
2. No basketball experience? How do you know how much basketball experience I have or anyone else has? I’ve played basketball for a long time. I watch a ton of basketball, I’m watching summer league right now. I have a basketball game tonight in my summer league. Sure it’s not like I’m Michael Jordan but I can only do so much in a short white guys body. BTW, Michael Jordan has a ton of bball experience and he drafted Adam Morrison.
3. Do you know a stat that accurately measures defense that we should be aware of?
4. Mocked by who? Do you speak to these players, executives, and pundits personally? I personally know Wizards owner Ted Leonsis has read Berri’s work and has said publicly that it is valuable. I’m sure others have given more attention to his work than you think.
BTW, what teams use a advanced statistics of any kind? I know the Mavericks used to used +/- but they don’t have any more championship rings than I do. Same with Daryl Morey who was at the MIT conference. How many rings does he have? Just because a team uses a certain stat doesn’t mean it’s necessarily more valuable than anything else. If these teams do use useful statistics their performances and decisions sure don’t show it.
5. Lastly, what exactly is your problem? You’re one of the biggest trolls I’ve ever seen. Do people pick on you every day? I don’t understand your contempt towards this “community.” It’s clearly obvious you disagree strongly. Wonderful. But you never contribute anything to the discussion. You just hate on people. If you disagree so much, why do you spend any time here?
I disagree strongly with nearly everything Rush Limbaugh says. The good portion of the country laughs at him as well. But I don’t go out of my way to go to his forums and troll them about how wrong they are. Why are you wasting your time?
Edmond
July 15, 2010
Joe’s one of those guys who will say that the Berri and Hollinger “camps” “despise” one another. I don’t know exactly how to characterize such a worldview, but I see it often. Everything is amplified and darkened, conspiracies lurk in the shadows… etc. etc. It must suck to walk around with that particular tint of glasses on.
Great post Robb. That John Hollinger is certainly incorrect!
Joe
July 15, 2010
1. Congrats, WP might be slightly better than PER. But both are still jokes.
2. And Jerry West and Pat Riley, two guys with extensive basketball experience, have gone on to become arguably the most successful executives in the NBA. I find it more than a little strange that these guys, as well as everyone else who’s played professionally and the people I know, either haven’t even heard of WP or immediately dismiss it.
3. There are some that at least try, and certainly do a better job than WP, such as variations of plus/minus. And no, measuring team defense and then dividing it based on minutes is not exactly an inspiring solution.,
4. Who cares about what an owner thinks? I personally know a front office similar to the rest in the league that thinks this whole thing is trash. And I recall a WSJ article a while back that revealed about half of NBA teams use advanced stats., including most of the successful ones. But not WP – better, more relevant statistics like plus/minus. Along, of course, with a healthy amount of real basketball knowledge.
5. Considering the way this blog smugly attacks competent executives for their supposed ignorance, I’d say I’m just returning the favor.
robbieomalley
July 15, 2010
Joe,
You should be more like Alvy who just made a very interesting point that could be relevant to the discussion.
And another thing – do you even read the other blogs in this supposed “circle jerk”? We talk about WP much less than Berri does typically. The post above barely references it at all and could have been written without it altogether and would maintain the same point. Ty at courtside uses a different statistic than DB. His incorporates defense directly, something you seem to long for. Also Dre routinely mentions several different statistics, including PER.
But you wouldn’t know that because you don’t actually read any of it. You just come here to be a troll and a jerk. Again, why are you here?
some dude
July 15, 2010
“Boozer was assisted on 74% of his possessions, while Jefferson was only assisted on 45% last season, so maybe Jefferson can get more lay-ups and dunks in so he can increases his FG% once he plays in Utah”
Nice point, Alvy. Boozer is very active in movement off the ball. I wonder if Jefferson can recreate this. I looked back to Jefferson 3 years ago in Minn in his pre-triangle days (and pre-injury) and he was assisted 50% of the time.
Will be interesting to see how the swap works.
Edmond
July 15, 2010
Alvy:
Yes. It will be interesting. And doesn’t Utah often run their offense through the high post? Seems like I saw Boozer getting alot of passes at the top of the key and then dishing to cutters on the baseline during the playoffs.
jbrett
July 15, 2010
Robbie,
I’ll venture a guess that Joe continues to come here because he’s a very lonely man; considering the personality he exhibits, he has to be. Given that all-but-certainty, any attention he gets is probably welcome. As you and others have noted, his attacks do not even have to line up with the post he is attacking. As to his use of the term ‘circle-jerk’–more frequent in his comments than you would find in the average porn review–I go back to my first sentence; at a circle-jerk, at least, you’re not alone.
Dre
July 15, 2010
“You’ve recently debuted a WoW “network” that includes 5 blogs, solely written by and read by devotees to your stat.”
This was supposed to be meant as a dig. However, I’ve got to say given the short notice, and amount of effort put in I am amazed at the quality of the product!
DJ essentially put a single blog post out looking for help. He got tons of volunteers, tons of article submissions. Additionally several of us thought we weren’t doing enough so we went and made our own blogs! This happened in the span of several months.
The number of quality articles available every week has improved and I as a fan am loving it! I’ll even say the “quality” of our trolls has improved (which may or may not be a bad thing).
Also Robbie way to go with your article! It was definitely an awesome read and I am curious to see the responses to it.
robbieomalley
July 15, 2010
marparker
July 15, 2010
lol at Chris Bosh’s face and the robotic voice
marparker
July 15, 2010
Joe,
So as I’m to understand from your argument conventional wisdom represents absolute wisdom. Because up until 2008 alot of folks claiming the housing market was going to implode were laughed at by the millions of Americans making money hand over foot in the housing market.
jlewis
July 15, 2010
Thanks, Joe. I now see how wrong everyone is here. +/- is the holy grail I’ve been seeking. It explains everything since it includes defense in a roundabout all encompassing sort of way. I won’t even worry about the complete lack of consistency in the stat over time for players that other metrics determine are very consistent. Since I’m not looking for a metric with any predictive value, so I can hope for insight into future performance, +/- truly seems to be the magical silver bullet I was looking for. I’m glad to have someone like you offering your help. With all of the people “you know” that are apparently super smart about the NBA you’re insight is invaluable.
Sorry for feeding the douchbag, I mean troll.
Alvy
July 15, 2010
I decided to stay home today and watch some summer league games (finally) and has anyone been impressed by John Wall? I like that he gets to the line.
Also, it seems no one (besides Lawson or maybe Cousins) is truly dominating the summer league like how Blake Griffin did last year, as he averaged 19.2 pts, 10.8 rebs, but 4.2 TOs.
todd2
July 16, 2010
I’m with CF and Alvy, I think Jefferson will benefit from working with Sloan and the Jazz’ system. He’ll definitely take fewer shots and his % will improve.
sean
July 16, 2010
Good analysis. Just stepped in here for the first time. A few points (not statistical):
1) Boozer is 6-8 with his shoes on. After watching him play AJ over the years, you’ll see that AJ is 3 inches taller at a legit 6-10.
2) Playing style is completely different. I don’t know why everybody sees Boozer as a power player. He is a finesse guy with some slashing moves and a big body. His left hand is his best weapon. AJ is one of the only true ‘under the basket’ guys in the league.
3) Integration with AK and Millsap will work better because of his center-style play.
Obviously, I’m a Jazz fan. I think Chicago will get great production out of Boozer as he will have Noah to clean of his defensive slop. Watch out for them this year.
But the Jazz just got way better. Mark it down.
Tommy_Grand
July 17, 2010
The Boozer/Jefferson comparison article was excellent.
With regard to what sucessful NBA execs say about various statistical metrics:
If you had an effective proprietary formula for evaluating players’ stats (that gave you an advantage versus other GMs) would you advertise it? If someone was giving a good one away for free online – would you encourage your competion to use it, or would you disparage it to dissuade the competition from getting wise?
Just a thought
dberri
July 17, 2010
Just to add to what Tommy_Grand is saying…
the Mavericks last year made moves that seemed consistent with Wins Produced and did not seem consistent with adjusted plus minus (the model the Mavericks paid thousands to use). This point was made last year.
Now I do not know what models teams really use (my sense is the use less statistical analysis in making actual decisions than many currently claim). But I agree with Tommy_Grand… they have no incentive to honestly reveal what models they like or dislike.
some dude
July 17, 2010
Dberri – Is that why Dallas’s point differential was mediocre and they went out of the 1st round with nothing more but a whimper?
Just joshin’ ya. :P
My_Lo
July 18, 2010
Al Jefferson was less efficient because the majority of his possessions were 1 on 5. Him against the other team. Watch tape instead of analyzing just stats. That’s why you watch games and tape. It’s really easy to do if you have NBA broadband. Also for those saying he’s not a good passer neither was Boozer and he’s coming to the Jazz at about the same age Boozer did when he came from Cleveland. He’ll improve tremendously. He sounds very coachable and I think he’ll be an amazing fit in the motion offense that Jerry runs. Think that Boozer was putting up 13 ppg and 7 rpg before he came to Utah and see what Jerry did with that. Jefferson is coming to Utah already putting up good numbers albeit just a hair less efficiently and now he’ll be in an offense that he’ll get even easier shots. It’s like old school math guys. If player A was a good but not great player but came to a better system and ended up being a great player then why can’t player B who’s already at the same level as said great player after this improvement be even better than said player? Of course there is a chance of it not happening but very few players come into Sloan’s coaching and not come off much improved players. (See also Gordon Giricek) Raja Bell came back for Sloan’s coaching. So Al Jefferson may not have been as good as Boozer was last year but I think we’ll see a drop off in Boozer’s play next year without Sloan’s offense and we’ll see an improvement in Jefferson’s with Sloan’s offense/coaching.
jerome
July 20, 2010
love this blog and the ‘circle-jerk’ network. i am from australia and dont get access to as much hoops analysis as id like, but this will now be a regular feature for me.
Keep up the good work all (including all commenters)
BGoff
July 20, 2010
You have missed the most important point. Millsap is replacing Boozer in the high post. Jefferson is replacing Okur and that is a vast upgrade in both PER and WP48.
Further, Millsap’s WP48 will go up as a starter and AK’s WP48 will go up some from playing more PF.
Who replaces AK (probably Hayward) is the crucial question?