Ethan Sherwood Strauss – of Warriors World Net – recently asked me the following question:
“Who would win, five prime Dennis Rodmans vs. five prime Kobe Bryants?”
For my answer, let’s just review all of Ethan’s post:
Because it’s September and because the Dubs are daring me to conjure something about Rodney Carney, I asked economist/statman/hoophead Dave Berri this old musky question:
“Who would win, five prime Dennis Rodmans vs. five prime Kobe Bryants?”
I assumed he’d choose Rodman, because the Worm bests the Mamba in Berri’s Wins Produced metric. His answer surprised me:
“As for Rodman vs. Kobe… people often argue that a team of Rodmans (or a team of just Ben Wallace, or a team of Bieidrins) wouldn’t be very good since no one can score. That might be true, but a team a team of just Kobe or just Iverson wouldn’t be too good either. After all, Kobe can’t guard a center and he can’t rebound as well either. As for a team of Kobe vs. a team of Rodman… well, Rodman can’t bring the ball up the court. So that is a problem. He also isn’t much of a scorer. But he would tend to dominate the boards, which might be good since he would miss a lot of shots. On the other hand, Kobe could bring the ball up the court and get his shot off. But he better make it, since he won’t get many second shots. Put it all together…. I think I take Kobe. Rodman is going to lose too many possessions before he ever takes a shot.”
Not sure I’m too sold on 2005 Kobes enduring the press thrown by the frothing flock of 91’ Rodmans, but then again, I believe Bryant to be the most overhyped guy in NBA history (albeit a good player and a joy to watch). And yes, point taken, the idea that a player’s worth should be valued in terms of how he and four clones would perform in an alternate alien universe? Questionable. Still, I love hypotheticals like this–not because they unlock some grand secret–but because they stoke my imagination in a way visions of dinosaurs used to. And before you confidently tell me that Kobe’s the obvious pick, remember: Dennis Rodman ripped down a jaw-scraping 18.7 boards per game.
So what do you think, who would win? What other impossible matchups would you love to see?
Speaking of Berri, he recently called Monta Ellis the most overrated player of 2009-2010. I have no qualms with Berri’s numbers on Monta–I just disagree with his measurement of ratedness. The basketball cognoscenti seem wise to the turnovers, aware of the defensive deficiency. As for the actual GMs who run this league…I’m hoping an Iggy for Monta deal happens sooner than yesterday.
Wages of Wins Journal 
tfrab
September 3, 2010
well, if I had to go with clones I would choose a team of magic johnsons :-)
TRad
September 3, 2010
Yup. Team Magic would be hard to beat. I’d like team Odom too. And team Gasol, to stay with Lakers.
I’d like to remind however that Rodman per36 numbers in his first four season were 15.6, 16.0, 12.0, 10.6 (TS% .560, .571, .613, .608). He wasn’t as one dimensional as we think he was. Ball handling would be a problem though.
OTOH team Jordan or team Pippen?
Phil
September 3, 2010
For my money the Finals match-up of all-time clones would come down to 5 Magic Johnsons vs 5 Kevin Garnetts.
marc
September 3, 2010
team barkley vs team artest would be fun!
nerdnumbers
September 3, 2010
In terms of complete players may I offer the following list?
http://nerdnumbers.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/top-30-supermen-of-the-turnover-era/
Garnett, Bird, Jordan and Magic would all be good choices.
We’re definitely hitting the offseason slump when multiple Wages of Wins authors are inventing scenarios to write about :) (I’m guilty of this obviously)
Italian Stallion
September 3, 2010
IMO, 5 Kobe Bryants would demolish 5 Dennis Rodmans. Rodman was an extraordinary rebounder, but he was so bad at so many essential basketball skills it would be comical. He couldn’t handle, pass, shoot, make plays, draw double teams, etc… Despite the size and rebounding advantage heds have a tough time scoring because each Kobe Bryant would average between 5-10 steals and be down court scoring before Rodman even knew what hit him.
Seriously, I totally understand that Kobe is not as efficient a scorer as James, Wade, Magic, Jordan etc… and also doesn’t bring as much to the table in other areas as some of the other all time great Gs and ball handlers, but at some point you have to stop being silly.
some dude
September 3, 2010
Rodman isn’t even that tall…
Kobe would shut him down defensively in the post. All he would be relying on is his rebounding putbacks.
This really is a silly question.
Now, 5 Rodmans vs 5 Ben Wallace’s….
TRad
September 3, 2010
If I were Rodman I’d shoot high arc lobs from everywhere. And then let’s see if Bryants could outrebound Rodmans on their own board.
And Rodman wasn’t _that_ bad shooter – in 91-92 he was 32/101 from 3p territory. Then he’s just decided he doesn’t like to shoot, but in his early career he was fundamentally sound (as for power forward).
And what about chemistry in Los Angeles Bryants? Bryant’s USG% is in low 30s, I don’t see how Bryant would defer to other Bryants. It wouldn’t be pretty. Kobe’s USG% 20? Unthinkable.
Dan Fitz
September 3, 2010
Everybody is missing Rodman’s D. He shut down Jordan when Rodman was playing with the Pistons. Rodman was the one of the best defender s ever. Sure he couldnt score maybe, but neither could Kobe. Did anybody see Kobe is the 7th game last year. That is the my only complaint about Daves stat, how does it measure defense contribution. Rebounding, I believe is part of defense so it gets a little of it, but if anything it undervalues Rodman as his defense was off the charts. He shut down shooting guards , small forwards and power forwards. What he did against Utah and Malone was unreal. The Bulls wouldnt have done it without him. Okay thats enough noise out of me. D wins championships
Edmond
September 3, 2010
TRad,
Awesome.
Realgm headline: “According to sources that know the team, Kobeclone #3 and Kobeclone #4 are demanding immediate trades. Kupchakclone #2 had no comment at this time.”
Can you imagine the Rodman locker room?
Evan
September 3, 2010
I guess it boils down to whether you think Rodman could get into the half-court offense vs Bryant. It’s been awhile, but I remember Rodman moving pretty well off the ball. I’m curious about whether Rodman could get in the post and score against Bryant.
I’m not sure who I’d take.
arturogalletti
September 3, 2010
Click my name or the pingback or my response:
Do yourself a favor and click the link at the end.
Sam Cohen
September 4, 2010
IS- I believe that Rodman was actually known as a very good passer, so I’m not sure why you think that he couldn’t pass.
Michael
September 4, 2010
This scenario is really a form of reductio ad absurdum.
The fact that professor Berri considers that Bryant should be favoured in this situation is highly significant given that Wins Produced rates Rodman as a much superior player to Bryant.
3223
September 4, 2010
Another variation on the question- would you rather have a team of 3 Rodmans and 2 Kobes or 3 Kobes and 2 Rodmans?
Evan
September 4, 2010
2 Kobes, 3 Rodmans easy.
Alien Human Hybrid
September 4, 2010
I think a better way of considering this question is what would a 1 Kobe 4 Rodman team do against a 4 Kobe 1 Rodman team. Personally, I think a 1 Kobe 4 Rodam team would absolutely slay a 4 Kobe 1 Rodman team.
Team “4 Kobe” would get very few rebounds, and team “4 Rodman” would have little trouble bringing up the ball or setting up the offense.
arturogalletti
September 4, 2010
1 Fisher, 4 Rodman over 4 Kobes and 1 Bynum
3223
September 4, 2010
Or another variation- Team Kobe with Kobe and 4 guys right at league averages for the other positions versus Team Rodman outfitted the same way.
Shareef
September 5, 2010
I know my Laker Magic can play all 5 spots offensively. But KG da kid played all 5 and defended all 5. I also remember Scottie Pippen’s length bothering Magic. Imagine KG’s. Gimme Garnett.
Leroy Smith
September 5, 2010
Some people are still complaining that Dave’s system doesn’t take defense into acount. That is so wrong. First of all, most of the formula is about keeping the ball away from the other team until you score or and to keep them from scoring. So if the other team is not scoring because you are forcing turnovers or low FG% shots, then you are doing well in the game of Basketball. People like saying that because they are trying to find ways to validate thier favorites who don’t do well with WP. Again, if you’re doing well defensively it usually gets captured.
stephanieg
September 5, 2010
Team Rodman would win, but only if each Rodman had a different hair color. Man, could you imagine 5 Rodmans on the floor? There’d bait the Kobes into all sorts of technicals and fake flopping fouls. I agree with the idea that he’d have to lob passes up court and so on. It still blows my mind that Rodman could guard Jordan and Shaq.
The real question is who would win, 5 Scalabrines or 5 current Jordans?
Michael
September 5, 2010
Leroy, Professor Berri makes it clear in his guidelines that defense is treated as a team activity by WP. The team defence adjustments are applied to players based on the number of minutes they play, not their by individual contributions (since those are not tracked in the box score).
In other words an outstanding defensive player on a poor defensive team will see his WP stat suffer and vice versa.
marparker
September 5, 2010
Surprised noones brought up 5 lebrons yet.
The way this is setting up this argument is only to get somewhere if we limit the pool to known ballhandlers.
Michael
September 5, 2010
I think Shareef nailed it with 5 Garnetts. Even 5 prime Lebrons couldn’t take 5 prime KGs.
Leroy Smith
September 6, 2010
Since magic could not guard his own shadow by his fourth year in the league, I think the 5 KGs and 5 LBJs would have to be the 1-seeds in this tournament. If the 5 KGs are from 7 years ago, they would take the Lebrons to 7 games but loose by like 2 points.
jbrett
September 6, 2010
Try it this way: Us WP stalwarts know that Rodman was more productive than Kobe, but also that there are distinct positional roles. So what is the optimal Rodman-Kobe lineup? I wouldn’t be afraid of 1 Kobe and 4 Rodmans–but I remember Rodman’s ball-handling, so I’d go 2 and 3.
3223
September 6, 2010
If you move from the simple 5 man scenario to a more realistic one with a rotation of at least 7 guys (2 being nothing special) then the choice of 3 Rodmans and 2 Kobes or 3 Kobes and 2 Rodmans is a bit tougher call. The best choice would depend in part of the offensive / defensive strength of your opponent and how well these clones actually played together, their chemistry beyond what the boxscore stats in a different context say.
There may not be 5 distinct roles but there are at least 2 and usually 3.
3223
September 6, 2010
Whether you assume the stars are good for 35 or 40 or more minutes a game would be a factor too, if you actually had the choice.
Stepping away from the clone game, I think you could say that the Lakers model is 3 main scorers with at least 2 on the court virtually all the time. Most playoff teams are similar. Among the 16 playoff teams last season I’d say only Charlotte, Chicago and possibly Miami could be said to have just 2 lead scorers (above say 15 points per game) and then a notable drop off.
jbrett
September 7, 2010
What if we take Arturo’s Half-Baked Notion of a 6-man rotation? I’m thinking 2 Kobes and 3 Rodmans, with a Kobe off the bench. The following notions force their way out of my brain and into print:
1. Kobe(s) would have a shot at becoming more efficient; he would rarely feel the need to force shots, as he would usually have the chance to pass to someone he admires and respects–Kobe.
2. Kobe(s) might become LESS efficient–and maybe no one would care; with their rebounding, he might let fly with impugnity, knowing a Rodman will go get the board.
3. Nature v. nurture? Kobe could probably become a PG, but he could absolutely become a triangle PG. And a Rodman could certainly be influenced to be more of a shooter. Not persuaded, mind you; if you told him you needed him to do more on offense, he’d probably go the whole season without a jump shot, but perhaps you could tell him to stick to rebounding and defense and bait him into a pretty good Freeman Williams impression.
4. This is the team that would make the best case possible for the ‘shot creation’ contingent. If ever a team was built that might NEED someone to hoist a few at the end of the clock, this is the one. Of course, it only exists in fantasy…I’ll stop there.