The following is from Andres (Dre) Alvarez
There’s no doubt that Dirk has had a big impact for the Mavs this playoffs. But the most productive player on the team has been Jason Kidd (check out Arturo’s blog for more on this topic). And when we look at Kidd’s career, this should not be surprising.
| Player | Pos | G | MP | WP48 | WP |
| Jason Kidd | 1.0 | 15 | 520 | 0.297 | 3.2 |
| Dirk Nowitzki | 4.0 | 15 | 584 | 0.213 | 2.6 |
| Tyson Chandler | 5.0 | 15 | 456 | 0.199 | 1.9 |
| Jason Terry | 1.9 | 15 | 489 | 0.141 | 1.4 |
| Shawn Marion | 3.3 | 15 | 476 | 0.141 | 1.4 |
| Jose Barea | 1.5 | 15 | 262 | 0.134 | 0.7 |
| Peja Stojakovic | 2.8 | 15 | 324 | 0.063 | 0.4 |
| Brendan Haywood | 5.0 | 15 | 249 | 0.041 | 0.2 |
| Brian Cardinal | 3.7 | 4 | 7 | 0.863 | 0.1 |
| Corey Brewer | 2.7 | 6 | 23 | -0.067 | 0 |
| Ian Mahinmi | 5.0 | 3 | 6 | -0.384 | 0 |
| DeShawn Stevenson | 2.5 | 15 | 229 | -0.203 | -1 |
| Grand Total | 3.0 | 148 | 3625 | 0.145 | 11 |
Table 1: 2011 Dallas Mavericks through Western Conference Finals
The greatest point guards of the turnover era (1978 to present) are usually listed as Magic Johnson and John Stockton. It’s hard for many people to put Jason Kidd at the same level as those two. I’ll agree that Magic Johnson was on another level that will likely never be touched. That said, let’s compare Jason Kidd to John Stockton.
| Advanced Stats | Regular Season | Playoffs | ||
| Jason Kidd | John Stockton | Jason Kidd | John Stockton | |
| WP | 292.9 | 311.1 | 33.6 | 36.25 |
| WP48 | 0.301 | 0.313 | 0.295 | 0.272 |
| True Shooting % | 0.506 | 0.608 | 0.500 | 0.568 |
Table 2: Jason Kidd and John Stockton Career Numbers
| Playing Time | Regular Season | Playoffs | ||
| Jason Kidd | John Stockton | Jason Kidd | John Stockton | |
| Games | 1267 | 1504 | 136 | 182 |
| Minutes Played | 46689 | 47764 | 5473 | 6398 |
Table 3: Jason Kidd and John Stockton Playing Time
In the regular season Jason Kidd has played just slightly below John Stockton. Arturo has offered an explanation that the altitude in Denver and Utah can inflate players’ numbers slightly (by the way, in the playoffs, Jason Kidd has played just above John Stockton).
John Stockton’s edge in career numbers over Jason Kidd is primarily due to time. John Stockton played at a top level until he was 40. Kidd has to play another two years to match total career years, and another three to match total age. That said the two are virtually neck and neck.
| Per 36 Min | Regular Season | Playoffs | ||
| Jason Kidd | John Stockton | Jason Kidd | John Stockton | |
| Points | 12.9 | 14.9 | 12.8 | 13.7 |
| Assists | 8.9 | 11.9 | 7.7 | 10.3 |
| Steals | 1.9 | 2.5 | 1.8 | 1.9 |
| Blocks | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.3 | 0.3 |
| Turnovers | 3.0 | 3.2 | 2.7 | 2.9 |
| Fouls | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.1 | 3.0 |
| Offensive Boards | 1.3 | 0.7 | 1.4 | 0.9 |
| Defensive Boards | 5.0 | 2.3 | 5.0 | 2.5 |
Table 4: Jason Kidd and John Stockton’s Career per 36 Minute Stats.
When we compare Kidd and Stockton to average point guards we should keep two stats in mind: Assists and Rebounds. The average point guard gets around 6.8 assists and 3.5 rebounds per 36 minutes. Stockton clearly wins at assists compared to Kidd, whereas Kidd clearly wins at rebounds compared to Stockton.
The issue is how these factors impact perceptions. Stockton averaged over 10 assists a game and got 75% more assists per game than an average point guard. Kidd has averaged over 6 rebounds a game and gets around 80% more rebounds per game than an average point guard. However by virtue of his stellar stat Stockton ends his career averaging a double-double. While people will acknowledge Kidd’s rebounding as amazing, it is doubtful his 6.5 boards a game stick in people’s minds as well as Stockton’s 10.5 assists.
Okay, let’s turn to each player’s overall production. By using Wins Produced we can agree with conventional wisdom that John Stockton was a better player than Jason Kidd. The argument being advanced here, though, is that Stockton was not much more productive than Kidd. By being excellent at rebounding, passing and not fouling; Jason Kidd has done about as much in his career to help his team win as John Stockton did by scoring efficiently and passing well.
The point of this article is not to tear down John Stockton, who is a top 10 all time player. Rather it is to point out how underrated Jason Kidd is. People will regularly compare Kobe to Michael Jordan but I suspect would scoff at comparing Kidd to Stockton. So with that in mind, let’s end this post with an amazing stat these two players share.
| Jason Kidd | John Stockton | |||
| Exp | Age | PG Rank | Age | PG Rank |
| 0 | 21 | 9 | 22 | 21 |
| 1 | 22 | 7 | 23 | 8 |
| 2 | 23 | 10 | 24 | 6 |
| 3 | 24 | 1 | 25 | 1 |
| 4 | 25 | 1 | 26 | 2 |
| 5 | 26 | 2 | 27 | 2 |
| 6 | 27 | 1 | 28 | 3 |
| 7 | 28 | 1 | 29 | 1 |
| 8 | 29 | 1 | 30 | 1 |
| 9 | 30 | 1 | 31 | 1 |
| 10 | 31 | 1 | 32 | 1 |
| 11 | 32 | 1 | 33 | 1 |
| 12 | 33 | 1 | 34 | 1 |
| 13 | 34 | 2 | 35 | 8 |
| 14 | 35 | 2 | 36 | 3 |
| 15 | 36 | 1 | 37 | 3 |
| 16 | 37 | 4 | 38 | 3 |
| 17 | 39 | 3 | ||
| 18 | 40 | 3 | ||
Table 5: Jason Kidd and John Stockton PG Rank in Wins Produced by Year
Except for his rookie year, Stockton was a top ten point-guard his entire career — in other words, for a time span lasting eighteen years (this is a record both for total top ten seasons and consecutive top ten seasons in the turnover era)! Jason Kidd has been a top ten point-guard his entire career, which as of this season has been seventeen years. This season Jason Kidd will get to overtake John Stockton for total championships attended (they tie — so far — with respect to actual titles won). If he can last another two years at similar levels, Kidd may overtake John Stockton’s amazing record of consecutive top ten seasons. My only hope is that Jason Kidd gets some of the recognition he deserves, as his play easily puts him as a candidate for top ten all time.
-Dre
* The Wins Produced numbers used are Dave’s hand crafted numbers. In some of my other work I have Kidd listed higher. This is in part because the automated approach sometimes placed Kidd as a SG or SF (due to his height). That said, for this article I compared Kidd and Stockton strictly as point guards.
Wages of Wins Journal 
Chicago Tim
May 26, 2011
Forget about recognition for a rebounding point guard. If they win this year Nowitzki will get all the credit.
The lesson for GMs is to look for rebounding guards. They come cheap.
By the way, how does Fat Lever stack up against Stockton and Kidd?
nerdnumbers
May 26, 2011
@Chicago Tim
To be fair Kidd has gotten paid well over his career. His scoring has dropped off (but a TS% around 0.500 means that is not going to hurt the team provided somebody else can shoot)
http://www.wagesofwins.com/Denver77-09.html in terms of skill Lever stacks up well. What makes Kidd and Stockton so amazing is how long they kept it up. I analyzed the Fat Lever trade by Denver once and turns out he was fading and it was the right move! (Trading Centers we suck at, PGs and SFs apparently we do alright)
fricktho
May 26, 2011
Never quite had the appreciation for Kidd I should have. But watching a 38 year old PG check Durant in the playoffs was pretty entertaining.
stephanieg
May 26, 2011
I disagree that people would scoff at the idea of Kidd being an all time great. He’s gonna be a first ballot HoFer and he’s usually way up there on people’s all time PG lists. If nothing else he was extremely visually entertaining in NJ, throwing crazy passes all over the place and running fast breaks to perfection. And he’s an extremely good defender. The only real knock on him people have is that he has a really shaky jumper. But he was the best player on two finals teams and had some really sick stat lines in the playoffs. I would have agreed if you said people don’t think he’s been that good in several years though.
Ezzie
May 26, 2011
I’m not convinced… Yes, Kidd is great, and a top-10 all time PG, but he’s just not at the level of Stockton. A .608 – .506 TS% gap is a very large one, and I don’t think it’s difficult to claim that Stockton’s responsibilities did not include rebounding – while it’s easy to say that passing and perhaps scoring are the most important features of a PG. Stockton was a much bigger threat to the opposition than Kidd because of his shooting ability and his slightly superior passing.
Ezzie
May 26, 2011
I meant to add:
I also don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Stockton’s playoff numbers were usually against much better teams than what Kidd’s playoff teams faced.
Miley Cyrax
May 26, 2011
Brian Cardinal is a one man wrecking crew.
Power Overwhelming
May 26, 2011
“People will regularly compare Kobe to Michael Jordan but I suspect would scoff at comparing Kidd to Stockton.”
Really? Kidd and Stockton tend to be rated fairly evenly from what I’ve seen, largely because of Kidd’s elite defense in his prime and his ability to run the fast break (considered second only to Magic). If anything, Stockton is quite underrated nowadays.
Philip
May 26, 2011
To echo stephanieg’s point, many people consider Kidd comparable to Stockton. Kidd was borderline MVP in 2002 and 2003, and he’ll be making his 3rd finals appearance. Most people wouldn’t even consider Stockton the best player on his own team, and he was never in the MVP discussion.
Part of the difference in perception may come from off-court activities. Stockton was a family man and stuck with one team for his entire career. Kidd got hit with domestic assault charges, was a coach killer and forced trades. That matters – whether it should or not.
I’d say that both player are underrated. There are fans – and even “analysts” – out there who’ll say that Rose is or Iverson was better than either of them ever were.
Dre, I think listing Kidd as a SG is justified. He plays PG on offense, but plays lots of SG or even SF or defense.
Schermeister
May 26, 2011
Kidd to me is the definition of Floor Manager. He always has his teamates involved and always making solid decisions and passing. He makes sure the best people have the highest chance to get a good shot even when kidd doesnt get the assist pass. Compare this to the other 2 score first point guards in the conf finals and their offenses seemed out of sync all series.
Kidd seems good fit for dirk(avg rebounder) where as dirk is a super eff. scoring. They can play off each others strengths.
I do think Wins produced overrates him a little though, his scoring eff is very low.
James
May 27, 2011
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards
ESPN puts Isiah Thomas at 3 all time. It would be interesting to compare Kidd and Stockton to him. And by interesting I mean funny because Thomas clearly pales in comparison. It just goes to show how much emphasis the media puts on winning titles in its evaluation of individuals even though it’s a team game.
Spider Jerusalem
May 27, 2011
They both pale in comparison to the indomitable, indefatigable Gary Payton.
Darrin Thompson
May 27, 2011
This should be good for a post.
http://xkcd.com/904/ “Sports”
Chris
May 27, 2011
Agreed with Kidd being an all-time great point guard. He’s never been an elite scorer but he’s made up for it everywhere else: rebounding, playmaking, defense, etc. Plus there’s definitely something to say about playing at such a high level consistently for so long.
However, have to disagree about him being the most productive Mavs player. This is where Wins Produced fails. Against OKC he put up these numbers:
—32.2 PG,
—.557 FG%
—.364 3P% on 2.2 3PA/G
—.970 FT% on 12.2 FTA/G
—5.8 RB/G
These are eye-popping numbers. The only reason Wins Produced says he wasn’t as productive as Kidd is because of rebounding. Admittedly, rebounding is very important. It also can show an insight into defense since good rebounders are often athletic and/or smart. But when you put up these kind of offensive stats, ignoring rebounding is fine, particularly with Chandler and Haywood to clean up the glass.
Kidd’s still a pretty good player. Makes smart decisions, hits a few jumpers, and rebounds well for his position but he’s not on Dirk’s level.
Chris
May 27, 2011
EDITED: Feel free to ignore last post.
Agreed with Kidd being an all-time great point guard. He’s never been an elite scorer but he’s made up for it everywhere else: rebounding, playmaking, defense, etc. Plus, there’s definitely something to say about playing at such a high level consistently for so long.
However, have to disagree about him being the most productive Mavs player. This is where Wins Produced fails. Against OKC Dirk put up these numbers:
—32.2 PG,
—.557 FG%
—.364 3P% on 2.2 3PA/G
—.970 FT% on 12.2 FTA/G
—5.8 RB/G
These are eye-popping numbers. The only reason Wins Produced says Dirk wasn’t as productive as Kidd is because of rebounding. Admittedly, rebounding is very important. It also can provide an insight into defense since good rebounders are often athletic and/or smart. But when you put up these kind of offensive stats, ignoring rebounding is fine, particularly with Chandler and Haywood to clean up the glass.
Kidd’s still a pretty good player. Makes smart decisions, hits a few jumpers, and rebounds well for his position but he’s not on Dirk’s level.
Kyle
May 27, 2011
I slightly agree with the above post inthat I feel dirk is just somehow not getting represented right in wp. I mean- surely he was helping the mavs out at least as much as kidd- if not more. But I’m a Dallas homer also so..
About rebounding though- we, Dallas, were out rebounded in I think every game. So obv dirk limitations in boards aren’t being just made up for by Chandler/Haywood. Ever since dirk had that injury in the spring I’ve felt like his reb #s have dipped. At least he can still kill it with the rock
GovernorStephCurry
May 28, 2011
So much strawman in this!
Greg
May 28, 2011
The other stat that Kidd clear leads on is beating up his wife.
jk
June 2, 2011
Efficiency favors Stockton to a huge degree, from shooting to A/TO ratio (a peak Stockton actually had seasons of 14+ assists while averaging comparable/ fewer TOs than Kidd did at 10 per), as well as being a far superior half-court floor general — perhaps the greatest ever — and , by extension, being probably the greatest pace-control player in the modern era of not all-time.
Kidd? Is a player that looks for the fastbreak, but many times falters in a half-court setup. Stockton could play at an all-time level at any pace, which is one of the rarest abilities to find in a PG, if not the rarest.
A peak Stockton’s PPG production, through his own scoring and facilitation, was in the neighborhood of 45 points per game. The only PG who matches that is Magic.
Also of significant consideration is that Kidd has benefited from the softer league, allowing him to extend his career as well as create far more easily; this something that has benefited all guards, as it was meant to. Very key.