Kenny Smith, at Yahoo! Sports (and an analyst with TNT), posted a list of MVP candidates this week. The list begins with Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, and LeBron James. It also includes Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and the subject of yesterday’s discussion, Kobe Bryant.
In the midst of these players, though, was the following name and argument:
3b. Deron Williams: Surprise. Some people think his teammate, Carlos Boozer, leads the way for Utah. Williams, however, is the engine that makes the team go. He’s the reincarnation of Jason Kidd, only with a jump shot.
Williams, along with Chris Paul, has already been the subject of the following two columns at the WoW Journal.
Chris Paul vs. Deron Williams, Again
When I saw Smith’s comment, though, I thought I would comment on where these players are 18 games into the 2007-08 season (through Monday’s games).
Deron Williams and Chris Paul after 18 Games
Let me start with the numbers for each player.
Table One: Williams and Paul after 18 games in 2007-08
As Table One reveals, relative to the average point guard each player is quite good. When we compare Williams and Paul to each other, though, it’s clear who the most productive player has been this season. Although Williams has the advantage with respect to shooting efficiency from the field and blocked shots, Paul has the advantage with respect to free throw percentage, scoring, rebounds, steals, assists, turnovers, and personal fouls.
With such dominance in so many categories, it’s not surprising to see Paul post a Win Score of 13.5 per 48 minutes while Williams only has a mark of 8.3. In sum, Paul is more productive than Williams (and as the above posts note, this has been true since college). Let me phrase this with a bit more force. Although Williams is good, his production doesn’t come close to what we see from Paul.
The Utah Jazz and New Orleans Hornets after 18 games
Of course, someone might note that the Utah Jazz – led by Williams – is a better team than Paul’s Hornets. And that’s true. After 18 games the Jazz had a mark of 13-5. The Hornets only won 12 of their first 18 contests.
The difference in won-loss record does not quite illustrate the true difference between each team. The Hornets currently boast a 3.7 efficiency differential (offensive efficiency minus defensive efficiency), which suggests the Hornets should have only won 11 games this year (or 50.5 wins across an 82 game season).
Meanwhile the Jazz have a differential of 9.0. Such a differential suggests this team should have won 14 games (or 64 wins across an 82 game season). In sum, the Hornets look to be a solid playoff team this year. But the Jazz appear to be serious contenders for an NBA title.
When we look at Wins Produced – which connects efficiency differential to the individual players – we see why the Jazz are so good.
Table Two: The Jazz and Hornets after 18 games in 2007-08
Thus far Williams has produced 2.6 wins with a 0.183 WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes]. Although such a mark is excellent, it’s only the third best mark on this team. Carlos Boozer has currently produced 4.8 wins with a 0.387 WP48 (yes Kenny, Boozer does lead this team). And Boozer is not alone. Andrei Kirilenko boasts a 0.315 WP48 with 4.1 Wins Produced. Additionally Ronnie Brewer, Paul Millsap, and Matt Harpring are also above average performers.
Turning to the Hornets, we see a team that’s dominated by Paul. Thus far, Paul’s WP48 stands at 0.388. Yes, Paul has a higher WP48 than Boozer (if ever so slightly), as well as both Kobe Bryant and Andrew Bynum (the topic of yesterday’s column). Paul has also produced 4.7 wins this season and is on pace to have 21.6 Wins Produced by the end of the season.
Unlike Williams, though, Paul is not getting much help. Except for Tyson Chandler, no other New Orleans player is on pace to produce double figures in wins.
Now someone might argue that Williams has better teammates because he makes his teammates better. When we look at the career performance of Boozer and Kirilenko, this is a hard argument to make. Both players have been consistently above average performers in their career. And Kirilenko was actually a more efficient shooter before Williams arrived. Plus in 2003-04 he had a higher WP48. Turning to Boozer, although he has become a more efficient scorer with Williams, he’s also a much better rebounder. In other words, the leap Boozer has made in wins production is about more than just scoring.
Evaluating the Individual
The trick in evaluating individual performance in a team sport is to separate the player from his teammates. This is fundamentally why statistics are kept in the first place. We wish to understand the contribution made by each individual, independent of teammates.
When we look at the numbers that separate players from their team, it’s very, very clear that Paul is a much, much better player than Williams. And thus it’s Paul who should be considered a legitimate contender for MVP. Williams, though, does play for a better team. And as noted, this is because Williams has better teammates. Consequently, it’s not surprising to see people confuse the outcome observed for the team with the actual accomplishment of the individual. In other words, we can expect more and more people to side with Smith in this debate.
Ultimately, though, this is not a democracy.
Well, then again, it might be. It’s just that the data has many, many more votes.
– DJ
Our research on the NBA was summarized HERE.
The Technical Notes at wagesofwins.com provides substantially more information on the published research behind Wins Produced and Win Score
Wins Produced, Win Score, and PAWSmin are also discussed in the following posts:
Simple Models of Player Performance
What Wins Produced Says and What It Does Not Say
Introducing PAWSmin — and a Defense of Box Score Statistics
Kent
December 5, 2007
This is a great post. Very interesting and really uses statistics well to shed light on the comparison.
prototypical NBA fan/analyst
December 5, 2007
hi. i have never watched paul in my life, or if i have, only once or twice. but i am still going to talk about how all stats are meaningless and you have to watch the games. then i’m going to allude to how deron lead his team better based on what i’ve seen. please forget that i said i’ve never seen paul play that would ruin my argument
Bobby
December 5, 2007
Excellent, excellent post.
Bobby
December 5, 2007
prototypical NBA fan/analyst,
“all stats are meaningless”?! Unless you watch every game you kind of need summary figures to capture performance for the games you missed. Even if you watch a game you won’t see every angle and the stats will encapsulate things you missed. And the human eye can get deceived. Stats are objective.
Pete
December 5, 2007
Good post. Strange that KEnny Smith is naming an MVP for the first 15-20 games of the season.
Patrick
December 5, 2007
Bobby,
Please check bit 0x0040285 of your sarcasm detector. I believe the bit is incorrectly set to 0, which sets the detector to “off”.
Flip the bit, then read Prototypical NBA Fan/Analyst’s post again.
joe morgan
December 5, 2007
I haven’t seen enough of chris paul to comment, but there’s no way he’s been as consistent as Deron. He’s definitely on his way to Coopertown. However, I would still prefer gary sheffield over both guys.
Ryan Schwan
December 5, 2007
Fantastic Post. And I was wondering how the WP48’s for the rest of the Hornets were shaking out. You’ve now provided me with ammunition for several posts about my Hornets.
Thanks, Dave!
mrparker
December 5, 2007
Joe Morgan,
Thanks for busting my gut….hospital bill’s gonna be ridiculous
dustin
December 5, 2007
Ryan, http://www.winsproduced.com should have that data. Altnough if you want just this season you might have to do some work.
Mo
December 5, 2007
People, if you haven’t seen enough of Paul to comment, ……. don’t. Don’t just jump in the conversation just to jump in it.
Mo
December 5, 2007
Dustin, thanks for posting that link.
Ryan Schwan
December 5, 2007
Yeah – I was looking more for this year. I took last year’s WP48 and used them to project where the Hornets would end up this year on my blog.
Surprise, I got 50 wins, just like Dave just posted. Of course, how I got those wins was a bit different, but hey, I’m still inordinately proud of myself.
Jeff
December 5, 2007
I get it now, we use your formula to pick the MVP. Just plug in the numbers and see who pops out! BRILLIANT!
Nobody has ever questioned Paul’s talent, or the fact that he is a better pure PG, but to say that “it’s very, very clear that Paul is a much, much better player than Williams,” is really really ridiculous.
Jeff
December 5, 2007
FORGOT TO MENTION:
It’s also about Deron’s past performance, continuing from last season’s trip to the conference Finals. If the Hornets are a legit playoff team you’ll likely see Paul’s name on the list.
Owen
December 5, 2007
While we are talking about point guards, how about Jose Calderon? He has been putting up ridiculous numbers this season. I may have calculated wrong, but it looks like he has posted a winscore of 12.2 per 48, due largely to his ridiculous 142/25 ast/to.
BasketBall John
December 5, 2007
Joe Morgan, I was two seconds from jumping all over your Coopertown comment. That was before I read the rest and your name. Great stuff.
But as for the never-ending Williams/Paul comparisons, will it ever end? You can’t go wrong with either. I wouldn’t give either the edge and I’m a Jazz fan. And both teams are damn lucky that they got them in the first place, especially the Hornets. The Jazz, instead of taking whoever was left after Atlanta picked, found themselves in the position of getting their pick of the litter so to speak. NO had to be jumping up and down with little girl glee when Atlanta passed on both.
But this will always be a topic during the season when reporters need something to write about.
Now, as a Jazz fan, what’s Paul’s record head-to-head v. Deron and the Jazz? 1-6. You forgot to mention that little stat.
8>3
Jon
December 5, 2007
Berri, this is off topic, but how did you test to see what kind of effect teammates have on each other and their statistics?
Owen
December 5, 2007
Jon – From Nov 19 2006
“And to conclude this essay, let me address the question, do players take rebounds from their teammates? The answer is “absolutely.” Of course they also take shot attempts from their teammates. In fact, we show in The Wages of Wins that the more productive your teammates the less productive you will be. But people tend to exaggerate this effect. We found the interaction effect to exist but it appears to be rather small.
To see this point, consider the consistency in player performance across time. If your performance depended entirely on your teammates, player performance would fluctuate dramatically across a player’s career. This is indeed what we see in football. But in basketball we see much more consistency, suggesting the size of the interaction effects have been exaggerated.”
Owen
December 5, 2007
And I should also say, that reading the book might satisfy your curiosity better than a comment thread…
Jon
December 5, 2007
I know what Berry’s conclusions are. I was wondering how he actually performed the test. Did he just notice that players statistics do not change much, regardless of team, or did he do something else. I was not asking for the conclusion.
GV
December 5, 2007
When you do win projections for a team, shouldn’t you control for strength of schedule and number of home/road games?
dberri
December 5, 2007
Jon,
The link between player performance and his teammates was examined via a regression of individual per-minute performance on a host of independent variables that included the productivity of teammates. The regression says there is a negative correlation, but the size the impact is rather small.
GV,
Yes. That is one of the big things behind “it is early.” Teams are not playing the same schedule and that does impact the numbers we are seeing from some players. My plan is to write a post on this, although I won’t be doing that today or tomorrow.
Guitaro
December 5, 2007
Paul is quicker, much better at steals and passes the ball with a little more flair. He’s very athletic for his size and has great confidence in his game and thus raises his teammates with him. His quickness and one-on-one moves are excellent. He can get to the hoop pretty much whenever he wants. He finishes at the hoop very well. He’s so quick and explosive that he’s very hard to stop on defense.
His knocks are his outside jump shot (although it is improving), he’s pretty small compared to some of the bigger guards, and he’s injury prone.
Deron is more of a position defender and prefers to body up on the opposing player. He’s great at using his strength and size on offense as well. He buries into the lane like a running back and yet still has the speed to outhustle guys down the court for coast-to-coast game winning layups. He has tremendous consistent range on his jumpshot. He’s an excellent passer yet his passes are usually more direct with the occasional flair. For a guard his size and strength, Deron has excellent speed and crossover moves. His deceptive explosiveness and lateral moves are constantly surprising his defenders; which allows him to get to the rim whenever he wants. He finishes very well around the basket and isn’t afraid to take over a game offensively.
His knocks is although he’s a great defender against most guards, no matter their size, he tends to have trouble with guys who use their speed to their advantage (as with most bigger guards). He doesn’t shoot enough 3’s when his team needs them even though he’s a great 3-point shooter. He also forgets, sometimes, when he’s scoring 30 points to continue to give his teammates opportunities. His assists average suggests otherwise, but on occasion he’ll take over and forget that part of his game.
The main difference between the two players that I feel is the reason why Deron’s teams historically win more games is killer instinct. Chris Paul is an amazing player with a very high intensity level. However, in his games vs Deron he tends to disappear in the 4th quarter. Deron’s ability to take over a game offensively has shown to be too much for Chris to match. Paul usually starts the game out great. He gets tons of steals and assists early in the game and you get the feeling that they could break open the score at any moment. However, Deron is so good about keeping the game close that you rarely ever feel like the Jazz are out of it. The other team could be up by 15-16 points and it doesn’t matter. The Jazz led the league last year in comebacks by more than 10 points. The problem was, for a while there they had to do it a little more often than I’d like. This year, however, they’ve learned how to put teams away early and keep the lead. Their winning point differential shows that (+7.84).
What do I mean by killer instinct? Well, all the great players who win NBA titles have the ability to raise their game to another level when games are on the line. Players could play poorly all 3 quarters but come alive in the 4th quarter and help their team win the game. Robert Horry is a classic example of this. However, the true superstars will play solid through the first 3 quarters and then raise above everyone else and play outstanding in at least the 4th quarter. Sometimes they’ll turn it on early and open up a huge lead; which leads to a blowout win. In Deron’s case, he may be passing the ball all game but when he sees that his teammates aren’t able to score then you see his focus and intensity go up. His opens up the full arsenal of crossovers, jumpshots, pick-and-rolls, and really pushes the ball up the court on every possession. He never lets up until the final horn has sounded. Paul uses his incredible skills but hasn’t yet been able to fully match that ferocity. It’s almost like you have to be a little mean on the court. I don’t always agree with it but it appears to win games. It’s because you intimidate the opponent into submission. Paul’s too nice to be mean on the court. It’s not a knock but unless Paul is surrounded by players who can battle then his teams won’t win as many as Deron’s.
In summary, Deron’s ferocity inspires his teammates to also be intense. It doesn’t hurt that Sloan is the same way. Deron is a perfect match to Sloan. Stockton had that same tenacity, but I think Deron has more scoring power that this team needs than what Paul nor Stockton could provide.
What I really wish is that the Jazz could’ve somehow worked a trade and selected both players. Can you just imagine how awesome those two would be together? Of course, they’d need a great shotblocker to protect the middle but still. I get goosebumps just thinking about that. =)
Jon
December 5, 2007
You claim that the reason Deron wins more games is because of his “killer instinct”. How about better teammates? Paul would kill to play with Boozer, Okur, Kirilenko and Brewer. I think that has a lot more to do with it than either of them. Basketball is not a game of 1 on 1, it is a game of 5 on 5. One player is not going to win games for you. (Sorta weird saying that on the website that tells you how many wins each player produces). But I mean in a single game, it takes 5 to win.
Jon
December 5, 2007
And another point. While I don’t remember the exact statistic, the Hornets are like 8-0 in their past 8 overtime games or something like that. No killer instinct, eh?
Pete
December 5, 2007
Jon Posner, It’s just random. Teams dont’ consistently win close games. That’s why win expectation is so good. I bet you that the Hornets go 4-4 in their next 8 OT games.
Jon
December 5, 2007
I wouldn’t say its random. I would say that the better team usually wins. So I would say it depends on the opponent. If the next 8 times were against the Grizzlies, they would go better than 4-4. Against the Spurs, vice-versa. I guess its random who they play so that makes the outcome random.
And I was just trying to disprove what he was saying about “killer instinct”. I don’t actually believe that the Hornets are an overtime juggernaut
Jon
December 5, 2007
and no need to include my last name, my name now only has my first name
Pete
December 5, 2007
Sorry atari, I misconstrued. I thought you were contending that Hornets were an OT juggernaut.
Pete23
December 5, 2007
Jon @ 11:33 pm, I used your surname b/c there is more than one “Jon” that posts here. You should choose something unique like Jon23 or something like that. Actually, I should take my own advice since maybe I’m not the only Pete. I’ll be Pete23 for now on.
Animal
December 5, 2007
here is my new name…
Pete23
December 5, 2007
Animal, are you the poster formerly known as Jon Posner?
dberri
December 6, 2007
Not to tell anyone what name to choose, but how about Jon Posner, or Jon P? I always feel a little silly when I discuss things with people leaving comments under the names of animals (or just Animal, as is the case here).
Animal
December 6, 2007
I don’t know, I just decided I don’t like having my last name on here, and jon wasnt good enough, so I decided to go with some else. maybe I will come up with something else. for now, its animal
cp3fan
December 6, 2007
no one has mentioned steals. cp3 is leading the league with 2.9 per game; williams only 1.0. while being bigger and stronger are physical advantages, so are speed and quickness. and for those who question small guards’ career spans, Allen Iverson called and said he would like to discuss the long term success and durability of small, quick guards who absorb a lot of contact.
Injured
December 7, 2007
How many games has D-Will missed compared to Chris Paul? This was one of the factors the Jazz made in selecting Williams.
dw
December 8, 2007
And don’t forget Paul was 0-1 against Williams in college too. You know that big blowout when Wake was ranked #1.
Mo
December 8, 2007
Yeah, thanks to Head and Brown. Once again like dberri says, Deron has always had better teammates.
Mo
December 8, 2007
People keep talking about Paul missing games and yet according to dberri’s articles, he still produces more wins for his team than Deron.
Memphis Pete
December 8, 2007
There have been some great posts here. I only want to comment on the idea that Paul doesn’t have a killer instinct. I went to Wake with him and, while you’re right about how nice he is (absolutely the most genuine athlete I have ever met), he turns into a mean, tenacious player on the court. If I wasn’t a huge fan of his, I would go as far as to say he plays dirty and is unlikeable. (see Chris Paul v Julius Hodge’s groin)
He is constantly angry at himself, the refs, the other team, etc. Sometimes this works against him because he can lose his cool, but most of the time this allows him to be the great leader that I already see and that the rest of league will come to know.
But as for his character, Chris Paul is what the NBA desperately needed.
Mo
December 8, 2007
Great post Memphis Pete. I agree.
Tommy_Grand
December 10, 2007
Both are damn good, but on a per/minute played basis, Chris Paul is better IMO.
Gary S.
October 22, 2010
This post probably seemed like a good idea at the time. What a difference three years have made.
How do you and your commenters like your crow? :-)